He also has about 15 less DP than league average for the position, given his innings played.

By my calculations, Park is worth 8.6 runs more than Franco in the field. I have Park at 0.3 runs above average (average for my world) and Franco at -8.3, and that doesn't even take into account double plays. That's for only half of the season.

I think Park is underperforming a little bit as he is making more errors than I would expect, but Franco is doing pretty terrible.

If you want to do a really rough calculation, estimate the value of an additional baserunner at half of a run. So Park has 3 more errors, but Franco has 15 more minus plays, which means that Franco has allowed 12 more baserunners. Add the 4 baserunners that Park "robbed" of hits with his plus plays and you have a difference of 16 baserunners or about 8 runs. You can get a little more accurate by equalizing for number of chances and some other minor stuff, but that gets you in the neighborhood. 8 runs in half a season is pretty significant, not to mention the echo effect that more baserunners means higher pitch counts, which means starter fatigue, etc.

Additionally, I perceive a (-) play as worse than an error because, by my understanding, a (-) play is a ball that would almost always result in an out and thus it is always adding an additional baserunner. In contrast, an error can be a ball where the runner would have been safe anyway, but he is able to advance to second (or whatever) on an errant throw. It varies from situation to situation, but, on average, the cost of a baserunner(s) advancing is slightly less than the cost of an additional baserunner.

So bottom line, you would expect Franco to be terrible in the field and he is. You would expect Park to be a bit above average and right now he's at about that or slightly underperforming.

FWIW, 2B in real life is generally viewed as one of the easier positions to field.

The defensive spectrum has 2B seventh out of the ten positions (including DH) on the field, between CF (easier) and SS (harder). WIS sports doesn't have it set up that way, however, as the HBD model has CF at a slight defensive premium (+5 range, +10 glove, +5 arm strength). I'd be interested to hear their rationale for that, as I don't know too many people who'd agree that you need softer hands and a better arm to play center than second.

Quote: Originally posted by MikeT23 on 3/16/2010crabby, I use a little higher range at 2B than 77. 

Okay, back....sorry about the delay. Yes, I too usually use a higher range 2b than 77, but am making due in this situation.

Even so, looking at Ricardo Reyes from your former world, ABU, his RF isnt even 5...

I guess I am still confused as to what constitutes a minus play. I mean, if he cant get to a ball because of his range, shouldnt that show up as a negative play?

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Quote: Originally posted by toddcommish on 3/16/2010For example, Derek Jeter can't get to a lot of ground balls that a legitimate SS might reach (and possibly boot), plus he doesn't have to make difficult throws that a legitimate SS might try (and throw away) since he never got to the ball in the first place.So a "ground ball up the middle, past the diving Jeter" might be a 6-3 or a "+" play for Omar Vizquel, or an E6 for Shawon Dunston who got to the ball, but threw it into the stands.  Vizquel would get a + and an assist, Dunston would get an Error, and it wouldn't even show up for Jeter.  All on the same grounder.

Okay, this kinda helps me on the plus and minus plays....

Quote: Originally posted by jtrinsey on 3/16/2010By my calculations, Park is worth 8.6 runs more than Franco in the field. I have Park at 0.3 runs above average (average for my world) and Franco at -8.3, and that doesn't even take into account double plays. That's for only half of the season.
I think Park is underperforming a little bit as he is making more errors than I would expect, but Franco is doing pretty terrible.

If you want to do a really rough calculation, estimate the value of an additional baserunner at half of a run. So Park has 3 more errors, but Franco has 15 more minus plays, which means that Franco has allowed 12 more baserunners. Add the 4 baserunners that Park "robbed" of hits with his plus plays and you have a difference of 16 baserunners or about 8 runs. You can get a little more accurate by equalizing for number of chances and some other minor stuff, but that gets you in the neighborhood. 8 runs in half a season is pretty significant, not to mention the echo effect that more baserunners means higher pitch counts, which means starter fatigue, etc.

Additionally, I perceive a (-) play as worse than an error because, by my understanding, a (-) play is a ball that would almost always result in an out and thus it is always adding an additional baserunner. In contrast, an error can be a ball where the runner would have been safe anyway, but he is able to advance to second (or whatever) on an errant throw. It varies from situation to situation, but, on average, the cost of a baserunner(s) advancing is slightly less than the cost of an additional baserunner.

So bottom line, you would expect Franco to be terrible in the field and he is. You would expect Park to be a bit above average and right now he's at about that or slightly underperforming.

Great explanation, but I guess my question would be, is 8 runs over a half a season that significant? How many wins does that actually cost you? 1 or 2?

8 runs in half a season is about 2-2.5% of the average offense in most worlds.

That analysis still doesn't include the 15 less DP he's turned vs. league average - that's another 15 baserunners he's allowed more than an average 2B in that world in just half a season. Saberists use 10 runs = 1 win in RL.

Quote: Originally posted by MikeT23 on 3/17/20108 runs in half a season is about 2-2.5% of the average offense in most worlds.  

Okay, but what if you had an offensive powerhouse type player at that position....wouldnt his offense offset the defense?

Quote: Originally posted by trsnoke on 3/17/2010That analysis still doesn't include the 15 less DP he's turned vs. league average - that's another 15 baserunners he's allowed more than an average 2B in that world in just half a season.  Saberists use 10 runs = 1 win in RL.

So lets say he is costing his team 2 wins in half a season....thats only 4 wins in an entire season. I know if you are in a close race for the playoffs 4 wins can make or break you....but that just doesnt seem like a big penalty to me....especially considering we are not weighing in his offense as well.

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