THIS is Knight's #1 PG?!?! - Page 2 - Hoops Dynasty

Posts: 2567 (0)

Hall of Famer

167 135 9 20

Prospect

Posted by kmasonbx on 7/19/2010 12:39:00 PM (view original):
Wow, people really got spoiled by how unrealistically good the old recruits were if this guy is being complained about.

No kidding. Heck, imagine if his PER and his LP are both High potential... the kid will be a monster.

7/19/2010 6:52 PM

achampa1

Posts: 97 (0)

All Star

1 33 1 1

Prospect

Time to explain myself here...

I wasn't disputing the fact that this kid is going to be a good player. Far from it, as I acknowledged when I said I wouldn't be shocked if he was a top-ten guy at his position. But as the #1 guy at his position? To me, it just doesn't fit. Compared to what good, Big 6 teams are throwing out there at PG right now, he's nowhere NEAR as good. In my mind, a #1 guy at his position should be able to at least hold his own against veteran players (in HD, freshmen vs. seniors doesn't work, but freshmen vs. sophomores/some juniors isn't a bad comparison).

With potential unknown, I know this is a slippery slope, but can anyone honestly say he'd challenge a sophomore/junior PG's abilities by the end of his freshman year? Again, I'm not criticizing the player. I'm criticizing the ranking and the class as a whole. This guy is a good player. But in my eyes, there should at least be a few who are better. That's all I was saying.

7/19/2010 8:17 PM

4green2

Posts: 284 (0)

All Star

30

Prospect

What they are throwing out there right now are players with inflated ratings. You can't use the old players as a measuring stick. This kid Is the new measuring stick.

7/19/2010 8:44 PM

hughesjr

Posts: 3175 (0)

Hall of Famer

492 154 8 2

Prospect

Posted by achampa1 on 7/19/2010 8:17:00 PM (view original):
Time to explain myself here...

I wasn't disputing the fact that this kid is going to be a good player. Far from it, as I acknowledged when I said I wouldn't be shocked if he was a top-ten guy at his position. But as the #1 guy at his position? To me, it just doesn't fit. Compared to what good, Big 6 teams are throwing out there at PG right now, he's nowhere NEAR as good. In my mind, a #1 guy at his position should be able to at least hold his own against veteran players (in HD, freshmen vs. seniors doesn't work, but freshmen vs. sophomores/some juniors isn't a bad comparison).

With potential unknown, I know this is a slippery slope, but can anyone honestly say he'd challenge a sophomore/junior PG's abilities by the end of his freshman year? Again, I'm not criticizing the player. I'm criticizing the ranking and the class as a whole. This guy is a good player. But in my eyes, there should at least be a few who are better. That's all I was saying.

If 50 was the average rating, then 60 would be a good player. We need to compare the players to each other. How does this guy compare to the other recruits, that is all that is relevant.

There is now a new normal.

7/19/2010 9:23 PM

kmasonbx

Posts: 847 (0)

Hall of Famer

210

Prospect

He's also the #27 overall recruit like somebody else said. PG is obviously a weak point in that class. He's the best PG, but he's the best of a weak bunch. Is he not what you would expect out of the 27th best recruit? It happens sometimes that for some reason 1 position is really weak, granted in real life it's rarely PG considering there are many more PGs then any other position but this is a sim so it's possible.

7/19/2010 9:44 PM

george633

Posts: 16 (0)

Hall of Famer

297

Prospect

Posted by coach_billyg on 7/19/2010 12:54:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tmacfan12 on 7/19/2010 12:44:00 PM (view original):
i dont understand why people are complaining so much. And you dont even know his potential. That guy is a good new engine guy.
i think something like half of all of the people who play this game get more enjoyment out of complaining about it than actually playing it. so, if seble ever managed to fix everything, we'd probably lose half the coaches on the spot :)

Billyg, with all due respect, this comment is inappropriate. It is true this game will continue to go on regardless of who leaves, but the problem is that many of the old timers who have spent a lot of time in this game recognize it is now seriously flawed and have become rightly unhappy about it. Are there some good things to come of the changes, and I would agree with you that there have been some. However, the negative aspects of the new engine/game far out weigh the good and have distorted this game out of proportion to its former self.

The simple fact of the matter is that the previous engine needed some tweaks, but there was no need to totally revamp the game to correct issues in the mechanics. It is not lost on me that the people who are working to get this game right should receive our respect for effort, but whatever motivated them to make these changes was definitely misguided.

Seble says that he listened to everyone's comments during play testing, but I would like to know who or what he ultimately heard.

7/19/2010 10:10 PM

a_in_the_b

Posts: 1653 (0)

Hall of Famer

1 18 667 3

Pro

And there are allot who just didn't want to try to adapt or even give it a chance and just quit. Just because they were old timers and quit doesn't mean they were RIGHT. No, it doesn't mean they were WRONG, but. . .

SPrinkling in the words "Rightly', "Definitely misguided', 'no need', 'negative far outweighs the positive' and the like is a bit of a presumption. THeir and your opinion isn't an absolute fact.

.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheyChangedItNowItSucks

7/19/2010 10:57 PM (edited)

kmasonbx

Posts: 847 (0)

Hall of Famer

210

Prospect

Posted by george633 on 7/19/2010 10:10:00 PM (view original):
Posted by coach_billyg on 7/19/2010 12:54:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tmacfan12 on 7/19/2010 12:44:00 PM (view original):
i dont understand why people are complaining so much. And you dont even know his potential. That guy is a good new engine guy.
i think something like half of all of the people who play this game get more enjoyment out of complaining about it than actually playing it. so, if seble ever managed to fix everything, we'd probably lose half the coaches on the spot :)
Billyg, with all due respect, this comment is inappropriate. It is true this game will continue to go on regardless of who leaves, but the problem is that many of the old timers who have spent a lot of time in this game recognize it is now seriously flawed and have become rightly unhappy about it. Are there some good things to come of the changes, and I would agree with you that there have been some. However, the negative aspects of the new engine/game far out weigh the good and have distorted this game out of proportion to its former self.

The simple fact of the matter is that the previous engine needed some tweaks, but there was no need to totally revamp the game to correct issues in the mechanics. It is not lost on me that the people who are working to get this game right should receive our respect for effort, but whatever motivated them to make these changes was definitely misguided.

Seble says that he listened to everyone's comments during play testing, but I would like to know who or what he ultimately heard.

Although this is getting way off topic I think the problem is people don't like change. The engine is different, and I think it is far better than the old engine as far as the actual game stuff. The are other areas where the old engine might've been better like recruit generation, but that's also something that is subjective. People are upset because their pressing teams with bad stamina or bad IQs commits a lot of fouls, well there's a reason nobody runs FCP in real life, it's a bad defense for the most part to run for 40 minutes.

I played about 12-15 seasons in the pre potential era and I was obviously around for the whole era of potential and the old engine. Personally I prefer the new engine, and once Seble and his team get recruit generation a bit better I think this engine will absolutely blow the old engine out of the water. But of course people will still complain, because like Billy said some people just need something to complain about.

The reason the engine had to be revamped was because as Seble stated a while ago he didn't code the old engine and wasn't around when it was coded and had a better understanding of a different code language so in order for him to be able to affectively make changes the engine had to be totally revamped.

7/19/2010 10:51 PM

achampa1

Posts: 97 (0)

All Star

1 33 1 1

Prospect

As the person who started this thread, I feel compelled to say that for the record, I think most of the changes made in the new engine were good ones. Even the issue of recruit generation needed to be addressed, and it was. However, I feel like it went too far in the other direction.

We'll know more in the coming seasons, and I hope the fact that I haven't left in a hissy fit yet attests to my willingness to give it a shot. I'm not the kind of person to deliberately point out every little thing wrong with a product, but at least in the short-term, I staunchly believe they over-corrected the issue.

7/19/2010 11:49 PM

george633

Posts: 16 (0)

Hall of Famer

297

Prospect

Posted by a_in_the_b on 7/19/2010 10:57:00 PM (view original):
And there are allot who just didn't want to try to adapt or even give it a chance and just quit. Just because they were old timers and quit doesn't mean they were RIGHT. No, it doesn't mean they were WRONG, but. . .

SPrinkling in the words "Rightly', "Definitely misguided', 'no need', 'negative far outweighs the positive' and the like is a bit of a presumption. THeir and your opinion isn't an absolute fact.

.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheyChangedItNowItSucks

A_in_the_b, you are exactly right when you say my points are subjective and are my opinion just as were Billy's. I won't argue that one bit and will admit there are some definite things that are improved with this new engine, and as time has gone on, the game does seem to be responding better. The fact that the engine needed overhauled is not lost on me, but my contention is that this entire process went too far. There was no need to revamp the game because the engine was not conducive to modification.

None of this changes the fact that there are still major issues with the way prestige is working (especially at D-I), the job application process, the ranking system, the way the half time adjustment works, and clearly the recruit generation is off base. We are basically playing the game with two entirely different sets of players, and that can be a major issue on a number of levels; (again) especially at D-I. I cannot see how anyone would be happy with any one of these concerns, and if you consider them in the whole, yes, I think that the negatives in these areas outweigh the positive.

7/20/2010 2:40 PM

a_in_the_b

Posts: 1653 (0)

Hall of Famer

1 18 667 3

Pro

Prestige has nothing to do with the new engine, its a carryover from the old engine, so its not really relevant here, and neither is the job application process for the same reason. Both are exactly the same as was being used in the old engine. They have nothing to do with the new engine So you can't count them as demerits against it.
.

As for the rankings, while there are still occasionally some wonky results, I can't personally see the new rankings as anything but better than the old ones; they seem much more reflective by the end of the year to me.

And personally, I refuse to make a judgement on the effects of the new recruits until we have rosters completely comprised of them rather than ones that are half and half. Until we have seen how both sets of players grow, and how having that first strata of players effects how early entry works.

7/20/2010 3:26 PM (edited)

gillispie1

Posts: 5030 (0)

Hall of Famer

95

Veteran

Posted by george633 on 7/19/2010 10:10:00 PM (view original):
Posted by coach_billyg on 7/19/2010 12:54:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tmacfan12 on 7/19/2010 12:44:00 PM (view original):
i dont understand why people are complaining so much. And you dont even know his potential. That guy is a good new engine guy.
i think something like half of all of the people who play this game get more enjoyment out of complaining about it than actually playing it. so, if seble ever managed to fix everything, we'd probably lose half the coaches on the spot :)
Billyg, with all due respect, this comment is inappropriate. It is true this game will continue to go on regardless of who leaves, but the problem is that many of the old timers who have spent a lot of time in this game recognize it is now seriously flawed and have become rightly unhappy about it. Are there some good things to come of the changes, and I would agree with you that there have been some. However, the negative aspects of the new engine/game far out weigh the good and have distorted this game out of proportion to its former self.

The simple fact of the matter is that the previous engine needed some tweaks, but there was no need to totally revamp the game to correct issues in the mechanics. It is not lost on me that the people who are working to get this game right should receive our respect for effort, but whatever motivated them to make these changes was definitely misguided.

Seble says that he listened to everyone's comments during play testing, but I would like to know who or what he ultimately heard.

George - Whether there are more good or bad things in the new engine is a question, and each is entitled to their opinion. But, that was not what I was addressing. I was just joking about the overall level of complaining, which is fairly consistently high - not just now. Not saying that is such a bad thing, nor was I targeting the complaint in this thread. I just feel a good portion of the complaining is ridiculous - not to discredit the large portion that is reasonable and good. I honestly do feel a lot of people like to complain, and sometimes complain for the sake of it. I can't pretend I am not guilty of that myself, at times :)

Anyway, I think you are reading a little too far into what I said. Just a joke!

7/20/2010 11:57 PM

george633

Posts: 16 (0)

Hall of Famer

297

Prospect

Gillespie, no, I was not taking issue with your statements. You are among the coaches who will post something that I feel strong incentive to take a look at what is being said. Further, you are exactly correct that no matter what Seble, or anyone else does someone is going to be PO about it. You know that a person can do 9 things right, but will get jacked for the one they happened to not get it correct.

What does bother me is that coaches who have not played the game for that long, or who have had any real level of success in the game are running around saying how great this new engine seems to them. Frankly, I will rarely complain about something, and in fact, I am finding it surprising that I have taken this tact with this new engine. Yet, I am also feeling strongly that the game is flawed. Does this mean it cannot be corrected, and obviously, the answer is no. However, it is important for those who have played the game long enough to make their voice(s) heard and bring attention to HD on some of these issues.

Daalter correctly makes a point that one cannot look at a single game to find flaw with the overall product. Within the scope of probability, anything can happen, and though most of the time I can find a reason for it, sometimes you just have to write it off to aberration. This is going to happen with anything; old engine, new engine, or future engine.

There are many good things about the new engine, and there were definitely some things wrong with the old one. The problem is that there were some major over adjustments and arguably unnecessary ones. Things like the half time adjustment are working differently, but this does not mean they are working any better. If one will go back to the section I pointed out that I find seriously flawed with this new engine, I am sure you will find some strong agreement. To argue in circles about whether it was the old engine or the new one is ridiculous. The simple fact of the matter is the new engine did not correct issues, made some of them worse, and created some new ones all of its own.

As a paying customer, I have the right to bring up valid arguments about the product as does anyone else. Customer Service is there for a purpose, and I don't like having to go around in circles with someone over semantics, and Gillespie, this is not pointed at you. IF, HD is truly listening to 'every' comment as Seble claims, they will do so, and either present data that shows things aren't flawed, or that they recognize there is an issue and are making efforts to correct it. Nebulous comments that we are looking at things does not give the customer much assurance this is being done, and if one considers the way play testing was conducted and the issues with this new engine, it is not a climate that breeds confidence.

7/21/2010 9:48 AM

gillispie

Posts: 1766 (0)

Hall of Famer

116

Rookie

george - i don't disagree with you there. but, i suppose i am missing the part that pertains to why my original statement was inappropriate. not that it particularly matters, but i still don't see where you are coming from on that one.

7/21/2010 6:56 PM

george633

Posts: 16 (0)

Hall of Famer

297

Prospect

Gillespie, I never felt your post was inappropriate, and it was taken tongue in cheek. One of the other coach's was pouring down on those not willing to make change, and it is not always necessary that someone accept the change because it may not have been done right.

When it comes to CS, I have been truly grateful to them because I cannot begin to tell you how much they have helped me out over my tenure in HD. I just feel they misplayed this change a bit, and in some areas, quite a bit. My complaints are not meant to be some sort of personal vendetta because I hold none. Yet, I would like to yell enough that maybe they will take a long, second look at things.

7/21/2010 7:42 PM

Forums

THIS is Knight's #1 PG?!?! Topic

Search Criteria