Posted by _hannibal_ on 2/28/2011 11:35:00 AM (view original):

Posted by girt25 on 2/28/2011 8:19:00 AM (view original):

Posted by cburton23 on 2/27/2011 11:32:00 AM (view original):
I thought SIMs redeposited money right after the first round of signings.

Yes -- but they don't redeposit money on the guys who'd already been considering them, they redeposit in on new, undecided players that they hadn't previously recruited.

They do not continue to put additional funds into players that they recruited from the get-go. What may have happened is that doomey had a very slight edge and then their considering credit overtook him. That has happened before, although I believe it was supposed to have been fixed.

How is that something that needs to be fixed?

It needs to be fixed if it happens and the player leading doesn't get a change of status message. In this case, it would be more surprising since I was a higher prestige, so if I was leading early, any considering credit would build in my favor, not the other way around.

Posted by doomey on 2/27/2011 1:49:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cburton23 on 2/27/2011 11:32:00 AM (view original):
I thought SIMs redeposited money right after the first round of signings.

Even if that were the case, I never got a message from the recruit telling me I was trailing and he signed last day.

Here is the message I got from CS. It includes an idiot's guide to recruiting at the beginning (don't they ever look to see who is actually writing the ticket?). The interesting points are at the end. When I asked them to clarify, they sent the second message:

When a recruit is considering you among others, this means that you are one of perhaps several schools that he is seriously looking at attending. When other schools are on the considering list, you cannot assume that you will sign the player. You may be leading in the recruiting battle, but that can change at any point. What likely happened in your situation is that you never did enough to make the recruit commit to you and therefore allowed the sim school to stick around. Since these schools were still being considered, they continued to actively recruit the player. Your activity with this player then tailed off and the sim teams were able to convince the players to sign with them. In the future, if you go after the recruits a little harder and get the players to drop the sim teams from their considering lists, the sim teams will stop actively recruiting them and your path to signed recruits will be much easier.

Me:
So you are saying that the sims are now actively recruiting past their initial investment? When did that happen? Has never happened in the 5 years I've been coaching.

CS:
What has been outlined as always been the case in recruiting. There is nothing further to add. Thanks.

Me:
No. No. You need to explain what you just said. You just said "the sim teams were able to convince the players to sign with them" since I have a higher prestige and I WAS ahead. The player was "committed" to me based on email responses and Word on the Street, I'm not looking at the considering list, I'm looking at the two things we know indicate leaders, WOTS and player response emails.
Consideration credit would only build in my favor due to my higher prestigee, so the only way to "convince" a player would be for the sim to drop more money.

Is that what you are saying? That the sims are now dropping money after their initial investment.

by actively recruit do they mean continue to add money or considering credit just keeps compounding?

i also wonder now, how exactly does considering credit work? i thought it worked like this:

player X likes the sim *this* much (let's give it a number, 80) on the first cycle. so every cycle perhaps 1% gets added.

so after the 2nd cycle, considering credit has compounded twice but the sim has not put in any more effort. so it's now at 81.608

you come in this cycle and the sim then likes you more, say you're at 85. you are now winning slightly and get the 'youre winning' messages, etc.

after the next cycle you both add 1%. you're now at 85.85 and the comp is at 82.42408. the comp will never 'pass you' because considering credit multiplies existing credit by 1.01.

does anyone have a much different impression?

Is the considering credit bonus static for all people who got in on a recruit at all times, or is it effected by things such as prestige and distance?

 

I was under the impression that it compounded with prestige. Distance affects the initial cost, but the credit is compounded by prestige.     

doomey - what did WOTS say? and do you still have the exact scholarship responses you got (even if its just 1)?

Posted by doomey on 2/28/2011 2:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by _hannibal_ on 2/28/2011 11:35:00 AM (view original):

Posted by girt25 on 2/28/2011 8:19:00 AM (view original):

Posted by cburton23 on 2/27/2011 11:32:00 AM (view original):
I thought SIMs redeposited money right after the first round of signings.

Yes -- but they don't redeposit money on the guys who'd already been considering them, they redeposit in on new, undecided players that they hadn't previously recruited.

They do not continue to put additional funds into players that they recruited from the get-go. What may have happened is that doomey had a very slight edge and then their considering credit overtook him. That has happened before, although I believe it was supposed to have been fixed.

How is that something that needs to be fixed?

It needs to be fixed if it happens and the player leading doesn't get a change of status message. In this case, it would be more surprising since I was a higher prestige, so if I was leading early, any considering credit would build in my favor, not the other way around.

I agree that if a lead change occurs, a message should be sent.

However, the post I responded did not address scholarship messages.  It implied that a SIM regaining an advantage via considering credit was something that should be fixed.  I do not see any reason considering credit should work differently for SIMs as for human coached schools.

Posted by jetwildcat on 2/28/2011 4:42:00 PM (view original):

Posted by doomey on 2/27/2011 1:49:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cburton23 on 2/27/2011 11:32:00 AM (view original):
I thought SIMs redeposited money right after the first round of signings.

Even if that were the case, I never got a message from the recruit telling me I was trailing and he signed last day.

Here is the message I got from CS. It includes an idiot's guide to recruiting at the beginning (don't they ever look to see who is actually writing the ticket?). The interesting points are at the end. When I asked them to clarify, they sent the second message:

When a recruit is considering you among others, this means that you are one of perhaps several schools that he is seriously looking at attending. When other schools are on the considering list, you cannot assume that you will sign the player. You may be leading in the recruiting battle, but that can change at any point. What likely happened in your situation is that you never did enough to make the recruit commit to you and therefore allowed the sim school to stick around. Since these schools were still being considered, they continued to actively recruit the player. Your activity with this player then tailed off and the sim teams were able to convince the players to sign with them. In the future, if you go after the recruits a little harder and get the players to drop the sim teams from their considering lists, the sim teams will stop actively recruiting them and your path to signed recruits will be much easier.

Me:
So you are saying that the sims are now actively recruiting past their initial investment? When did that happen? Has never happened in the 5 years I've been coaching.

CS:
What has been outlined as always been the case in recruiting. There is nothing further to add. Thanks.

Me:
No. No. You need to explain what you just said. You just said "the sim teams were able to convince the players to sign with them" since I have a higher prestige and I WAS ahead. The player was "committed" to me based on email responses and Word on the Street, I'm not looking at the considering list, I'm looking at the two things we know indicate leaders, WOTS and player response emails.
Consideration credit would only build in my favor due to my higher prestigee, so the only way to "convince" a player would be for the sim to drop more money.

Is that what you are saying? That the sims are now dropping money after their initial investment.

by actively recruit do they mean continue to add money or considering credit just keeps compounding?

i also wonder now, how exactly does considering credit work? i thought it worked like this:

player X likes the sim *this* much (let's give it a number, 80) on the first cycle. so every cycle perhaps 1% gets added.

so after the 2nd cycle, considering credit has compounded twice but the sim has not put in any more effort. so it's now at 81.608

you come in this cycle and the sim then likes you more, say you're at 85. you are now winning slightly and get the 'youre winning' messages, etc.

after the next cycle you both add 1%. you're now at 85.85 and the comp is at 82.42408. the comp will never 'pass you' because considering credit multiplies existing credit by 1.01.

does anyone have a much different impression?

My understanding from the forums is that considering credit only applied to effort given before a certain (purposefully unspecified) cycle.  My experience has been that considering credit applies to effort that is some number of cycles old.  I was not aware that considering credit is compounded.  Also, I will say that it is not an area which I know a lot about, so I could be totally off base.

I've tried to understand considering credit, and still struggle with it, but I am fairly certain that it does not compund.

I think it's 100% clear that jet's understanding of considering credit is wrong.  We KNOW that both sim/human and human/human recruiting pairs can switch places at the top of a recruit's list as a result of considering credit.  If considering credit is just a continuously compounding multiplication of the total recruiting effort a school has made towards a player, nobody would ever pass anyone as a result of it.  It would only make things tougher for new players when they first begin recruiting; ie, starting from further behind than the total effort the schools already on the player put in.

I'm not entirely convinced so far that considering credit depends on the amount of effort you put into a recruit.  I'm suspicious that rather than being multiplicative it's additive.  It may be compounding, but only on itself and not on total efforts made.  In other words, say a recruit begins considering your school in the 11 AM cycle.  At the 2 PM cycle you get a considering credit bump, maybe 1 "point" in jet's scale.  At 5 PM you get another point plus an extra .1 of interest on your initial point (total considering credit adds to 2.1).  At 8 you get an extra 1.21 (total, 3.31).  At 11, 1.33.  And so forth.  I actually think it might be more complicated than that, returning small values early and increasingly large (but still relatively small, something like 5-6 phone calls late in signings if a recruit was considered very early and definitely significantly less than a HV under all circumstances) values later.  More of an exponential growth, maybe (so if you want to think of it as continuously compounding...).

Posted by fatchance on 2/27/2011 1:58:00 PM (view original):
wow, keep us posted on this fiasco

This is the CS followup after looking at the recruiting efforts to that specific player:

"It's difficult to figure out exactly what happened now that recruiting has ended, but it does appear that he should have signed with you based purely on recruiting efforts. Did he outright reject your scholarship offer at any point?"

And he took the scholarship, so...

Posted by dahsdebater on 3/1/2011 2:54:00 PM (view original):
I think it's 100% clear that jet's understanding of considering credit is wrong.  We KNOW that both sim/human and human/human recruiting pairs can switch places at the top of a recruit's list as a result of considering credit.  If considering credit is just a continuously compounding multiplication of the total recruiting effort a school has made towards a player, nobody would ever pass anyone as a result of it.  It would only make things tougher for new players when they first begin recruiting; ie, starting from further behind than the total effort the schools already on the player put in.

I'm not entirely convinced so far that considering credit depends on the amount of effort you put into a recruit.  I'm suspicious that rather than being multiplicative it's additive.  It may be compounding, but only on itself and not on total efforts made.  In other words, say a recruit begins considering your school in the 11 AM cycle.  At the 2 PM cycle you get a considering credit bump, maybe 1 "point" in jet's scale.  At 5 PM you get another point plus an extra .1 of interest on your initial point (total considering credit adds to 2.1).  At 8 you get an extra 1.21 (total, 3.31).  At 11, 1.33.  And so forth.  I actually think it might be more complicated than that, returning small values early and increasingly large (but still relatively small, something like 5-6 phone calls late in signings if a recruit was considered very early and definitely significantly less than a HV under all circumstances) values later.  More of an exponential growth, maybe (so if you want to think of it as continuously compounding...).

maybe the effort you put in on the first cycle compounds at a higher rate than effort you put in on later cycles...say 1st cycle effort compounds 2% each cycle. 2nd cycle compounds 1.2%, 3rd cycle 1.0%...and maybe the 11th cycle and later compounds 0%

Jet, that seems like an unreasonably complex system, but I have no reason to believe that that couldn't be the case...  And, in fact, if it started with the system you initially described I could see it evolving into this that you describe now over time.  You going to put a team in the Tark USA South?

Doomey, that sucks.

Posted by dahsdebater on 3/1/2011 5:44:00 PM (view original):
Jet, that seems like an unreasonably complex system, but I have no reason to believe that that couldn't be the case...  And, in fact, if it started with the system you initially described I could see it evolving into this that you describe now over time.  You going to put a team in the Tark USA South?

Doomey, that sucks.

yep planning on it. when do the new coach signups begin, 2am?

Well, they gave me a some game credit, but I'd rather have the four star recruit

this may shed a little light on the subject. CS said, long ago, that considering credit didn't even matter until 24 hours in. this was in a somewhat vague response to something and really didn't mean a god damn thing. but, i feel like it does imply that somehow, 24 hours factors in.

now, the way CS said at the time sounded like, don't worry if you miss the first couple cycles, because considering credit doesn't start mattering for 24 hours anyway. however, subsequent posts on the topic by various people made me think this was not true - more likely, a classic case of CS giving misinformation with a nugget of truth buried deep down. i am guessing that what it means is that you don't get considering credit bonuses until 24 hours after your initial input of credit - which, of course, doesn't do a damn bit of good for those who missed the first couple cycles.

to me, this, applied to a theory like jet's original one (before he added compounding something or other), where considering credit is a simple multiplier of effort (which i think is true), could make sense. it could explain why, despite being ahead of a sim, you can actually get over taken - because they start getting considering credit before you do, and it may or may not ramp up over time, which would greaten the effect.

in truth, i have no experience that leads me to think the above might be true. but it is the only logical explanation i can come up with to explain the situation whereby you are ahead of a sim, and then are behind, despite the sim not spending money. so i just assume it is true.

what can you take away? i would play it safe on a recruit you want, and spend a little extra to make sure you don't fall prey to this strange and somewhat illogical situation.