wow you really are a debater....lol   j/k

I'm one of those that will squeeze with my pitcher almost every time, and then possibly a bottom of the lineup hitter that is really struggling every now and then in a big sport where I REALLY need the run and simply don't trust them to get the runner home any other way.  I'd never do it with a middle of the lineup guy, but frankly i'll admit that it is likely more the fact that i'd rather play for a big inning than a cheap run and not because it is more realistic.  I don't particularly like when people utilize it regularly as a strategy with just about any batter in their lineup, but let's be real here, this is a game we play for money and there are prizes at stake.  If you are playing because you want the most realistic sim possible than as has been pointed out, live play isn't very satisfying for a host of other reasons.  I love the sim, warts and all, and like any other competitive endeavor I have ever undertaken, I aim to do one thing first and foremost and that is to win.  I like so many others here HATE to lose.  So I study trends, I listen to advice and read posts about strategy, I adapt, and I try to take advantage of what the sim will likely give me.  For that reason, I can't get too upset with someone who utilizes the SS with more regularity if they believe it will help them to victory.  It seems silly to me to expect someone to not use a strategy that may help them win simply because I choose not to employ it.  Just my two cents though.  

I agree with dahs that there are two issues, but see a different two than the difference between the safety sqeeze and suicide squeeze (though on that topic I think the difference is close to non-existent; I don't recall ever seeing a runner hold at third in WIS on a bunt with or without H&R on, even with runners at first and second when in RL 90% the guy at third would only go if there's a great bunt).

The two issues I see are some will do whatever it takes to win a game, and some prefer not to take advantage of a flaw in the sim that lets the bunt score a run far more often than it should. obnyy and others have every right to play the game how they see fit; opponents of the tactic, though, also have every right to get angry about it. What I don't understand is people who use the bunt acting surprised when their opponent gets angry about it, since it's no secret that at least half the Live players feel it's a BS move.

We can debate how different it is to do it with the pitcher, but my own opinion is that if it's a situation when I need the run, I'll pinch hit instead. If it's the 8th inning of a close game and a RL manager sends his pitcher up with a runner at third, the infield is going to be playing in enough that the bunt will amost never work. I'll only have the pitcher bunt if it's the starter and early enough in the game that it makes no sense to hit for him. But if the opponent bunts more often with the pitcher, I can't get too worked up about that. I do get worked up when a middle-of-the-order bat is pinch-hit for by a pitcher just because the player figures the sim considers the pitcher a better bunter.

Posted by verynice on 3/5/2011 5:50:00 AM (view original):
should start a thread with guys that use it consistanly so when we play them we know we can do it to them also. kinda like a heads up we know its coming and lets beat them to the punch. If you wanna do it to one of my teams its gonna happen to yours sorta thing

I keep a list of what I consider bunt abusers, and if I have an important game against them, I'll let it sim rather than play it live and expose myself to losing on a squeeze. There's no managerial setting high enough to force the cleanup hitter to squeeze Bengie Molina home from third to win a game.

Posted by joshkvt on 3/9/2011 2:16:00 PM (view original):
I agree with dahs that there are two issues, but see a different two than the difference between the safety sqeeze and suicide squeeze (though on that topic I think the difference is close to non-existent; I don't recall ever seeing a runner hold at third in WIS on a bunt with or without H&R on, even with runners at first and second when in RL 90% the guy at third would only go if there's a great bunt).

The two issues I see are some will do whatever it takes to win a game, and some prefer not to take advantage of a flaw in the sim that lets the bunt score a run far more often than it should. obnyy and others have every right to play the game how they see fit; opponents of the tactic, though, also have every right to get angry about it. What I don't understand is people who use the bunt acting surprised when their opponent gets angry about it, since it's no secret that at least half the Live players feel it's a BS move.

We can debate how different it is to do it with the pitcher, but my own opinion is that if it's a situation when I need the run, I'll pinch hit instead. If it's the 8th inning of a close game and a RL manager sends his pitcher up with a runner at third, the infield is going to be playing in enough that the bunt will amost never work. I'll only have the pitcher bunt if it's the starter and early enough in the game that it makes no sense to hit for him. But if the opponent bunts more often with the pitcher, I can't get too worked up about that. I do get worked up when a middle-of-the-order bat is pinch-hit for by a pitcher just because the player figures the sim considers the pitcher a better bunter.

I agree with that last part.  If it's late innings and my pitcher is up with less than 2 outs and a runner on 3rd, i'm likely going to send up my best PH instead of bunting.  However, early in the game if I have a starter up and I'm not going to take him out for a ph in that situation, i'm absolutely going to bunt to try and get that run.  Again, I never run a squeeze play with a middle of the order guy, I just don't get that worked up over it when other's do.  I actually get more annoyed at the sim when opposing pitchers hit 2-out bases loaded triples or just get 2-out RBIs in general after I've walked the hitter in front of them.  THAT seems like it happens far too often for my liking, but it happens for me too, so it's just another thing you deal with.  

Josh, I've had the runner stay at third on a safety squeeze a very high percentage of the time (at least 30-40%), so I have a hard time believing you don't ever recall seeing it happen.  If the runner doesn't go the box score doesn't read it out as a bunt attempt, it just calls it a groundout.  So if you aren't the one calling for the bunt maybe you aren't aware of it.  But it happens fairly regularly.

I just don't understand why WIS doesn't fix this issue. 

I'm all for having the pitcher bunt with less than 2 outs no matter the inning.  My job is to win the game and if by advancing 1 run across the plate keeps my pitcher in the game I have no problem with it.  You can't complain about wis not being realistic how many double plays have you seen with no outs and the man on third doesn't score.  Or how many times does a player get an assist on getting himself out on the other team.  If you don't want the pitcher bunting play your infield in.

That being said having a .300+ power hitter bunting to get a runner home is a completely different situation.  That is completely unrealistic.  The only time I want my power hitters bunting is if the shift is on and only 1 player on left side of infield to keep the other tm honest or advancing a speedster to second.  And since we don't have the first option I'd rather not do it or have it done to me.

inf in NEVER works on bunts with runner on third....NEVER. that is why it is a major glitch....throw never goes home...in RL games throws would go to the plate 90% of the time unless team is up a ton of runs. And if inf is in would definitely throw home (only reason to play in). Dps with runner on third not scoring is another glitch. Hopefully they fix both of these problems to make it more realistic

If it's a glitch then fix it if not then be consistent but remember even in Majors different mgr's have different styles.  And if it is a glitch I still don't have a problem with someone like Jerry Remy decent hitter, very good bunter, or Ichiro who has made a career of infield hits and bunts attempting suicide squeeze or Sac. bunt.

And basically remember this is a game.  And if you are afraid of spending $12.95 to play live and get beaten then don't play.  And this is coming from a career sub .500 player.

I think my sub.500 comment came out wrong what I meant was WIS created the game to have fun and that is what I like to do win or lose. (mostly lose)  It was not aimed at anyone in particular besides myself.  Meaning 1 play usually doesn't determine the outcome of the game it's how you play all 9 innings.  we just seem to notice the highlights aka sportscenter.  Would appreciate feedback either through forum or sitemail.

By the way we live in Real Life and play to get away from it, because I sure would like to be able to hit or pitch as good as any major leaguer.

Since you asked for feedback ...
The problem is that this play often does determine the game. Some who don't like the tactic will still do it if it means winning the game in a late inning when one run breaks a tie or evens the score. And the difference between this and the frustrating DP scenario is that the runner not scoring is something that is completely in the hands of WIS, while the bunt is specifically selected by the opposing player to take advantage of what seems to be a flaw in the program. It's frustrating to lose a game when the runner doesn't score from third, but we can't blame the other player in that case. What bothers those of us who hate the tactic is that the other player is choosing to take advantage of an unrealistic scenario.

One glance at my record proves I don't mind spending money to lose games. But to join as many leagues as I do and meet the live minimums, I have to play when I can't pay full attention to the game. That means I'm not always putting the IF in when the other team has strong hitters up and runners at third. If I don't pull the IF in and a pitcher bunts in a run, I can only blame myself. If I don't pull the IF in and Reggie Jackson or Greg Luzinski bunts in a run, I have every right to get angry about it and to let those games sim if they are going to decide a pennant race.

Posted by soxfan65 on 3/14/2011 6:08:00 PM (view original):
If it's a glitch then fix it if not then be consistent but remember even in Majors different mgr's have different styles.  And if it is a glitch I still don't have a problem with someone like Jerry Remy decent hitter, very good bunter, or Ichiro who has made a career of infield hits and bunts attempting suicide squeeze or Sac. bunt.

Ihchiro has 27 sac bunts in 10 seasons. At best, maybe three or four of them are squeezes, and probably no more than two or three are suicides. Remy did have more than 100 sac bunts, though the issue isn't bunting but the ridiculous success rate of the suicide squeeze. Again, the problem (to those who argue against the tactic) is that the squeeze bunt should work a whole lot less often than it does, and using it with non-pitchers is exploiting (i.e. benefitting from) that flaw. If it's OK for someone to do whatever it takes to win a game, then choosing not to play a game live (the only defense against someone who uses the squeeze) also has to be OK. If I shouldn't complain about the bunt, then others shouldn't complain if I improve my odds of winning by letting it sim. If that costs an owner the chance to make a minimum, so be it. And to be clear, I have only refused to play maybe 5 or 6 games with over 27,000 played.

In RL, a team that started using the suicide as a regular tactic would find its hitters spending a lot of time ducking and diving out of the batter's box.

Okay, you have me convinced.  I'm not unreasonable and will not use it on a regular basis, as I have in the past.  But I reserve the right to use the squeeze on occasion when a position player that does bunt consistently in the majors is at bat.

On a somewhat lighter note, please use the term in the Majors as opposed to 'in real life'.  As I use wis to get away from real life for short periods of time.

Thanks for the convincing debate,

signed A more realistic baseball fan,

Chris