Guards Dominate?! Feedback please! Topic

Though I may be wrong about its origination, I do know that certain high school coaches started using what ended up being called the double dribble motion.  This entailed using 4 guards, but on the whole, I suspect those teams were not very successful.  There are a number of college coaches that use a variation on this, but most of those are playing SF in the 4 slot.  HD did have a good idea in diversifying the skill sets of the players to represent the fact that a player may be athletic enough to play multiple positions, but my take is that they have overdone this.   A lot of these numbers end up being useless in the game, and in fact, I think they can relegate a player to that same status.  At D-I and with a SG that has, let's say, a 60 for both PE and LP will not play well at any slot unless they have numbers off the chart elsewhere.

Stew's original post is a good one because St. Bonnie in IBA made over 1000 3 pt. shots in a season.  Doing this made a mockery of the game because the SIM did not know what to do with it, and going +5 did not address the problem.   No team in RL would have won the NT doing that, and in fact, most college coaches do not like the 3 pt. shot for a number of reasons.  If you stop to think about it, what differentiated the big time programs with the Butler's of the world during NT play was the inside game.  In recent years, the small school programs have closed this advantage, but you still rarely see a team that doesn't have an inside game competing deep in the tournament.

HD has told me they have done things to limit the use of ridiculous distro overloads, I cannot dispute that, but do know this one thing to be a fact.  Try overloading the PE to see what kind of result you get, and the next game try an overload of distro to the LP.  I can assure you that the one to the PE works much better than relying on the inside game.  Further, it seems to be more easy to shut down the inside game than the outside because the PE game is easier to disguise than the inside game, which lends to this premise.

HD says that the average team in RL makes around 32-34%% of their shots as 3 pt. attempts.  On one season,  I looked at the entire list of D-I teams in RL and found that only KS St. had reached the 32% mark for 3 pt. attempts.  Most were around 30%, or less, and one season TX made something like 25%.  Now, there are teams like Charleston that may hit 50% of their shots as 3 pt. attempts, but again, where do you find these teams placed in the NT. 
6/11/2012 3:34 PM
Posted by nihl on 6/11/2012 3:34:00 PM (view original):
Though I may be wrong about its origination, I do know that certain high school coaches started using what ended up being called the double dribble motion.  This entailed using 4 guards, but on the whole, I suspect those teams were not very successful.  There are a number of college coaches that use a variation on this, but most of those are playing SF in the 4 slot.  HD did have a good idea in diversifying the skill sets of the players to represent the fact that a player may be athletic enough to play multiple positions, but my take is that they have overdone this.   A lot of these numbers end up being useless in the game, and in fact, I think they can relegate a player to that same status.  At D-I and with a SG that has, let's say, a 60 for both PE and LP will not play well at any slot unless they have numbers off the chart elsewhere.

Stew's original post is a good one because St. Bonnie in IBA made over 1000 3 pt. shots in a season.  Doing this made a mockery of the game because the SIM did not know what to do with it, and going +5 did not address the problem.   No team in RL would have won the NT doing that, and in fact, most college coaches do not like the 3 pt. shot for a number of reasons.  If you stop to think about it, what differentiated the big time programs with the Butler's of the world during NT play was the inside game.  In recent years, the small school programs have closed this advantage, but you still rarely see a team that doesn't have an inside game competing deep in the tournament.

HD has told me they have done things to limit the use of ridiculous distro overloads, I cannot dispute that, but do know this one thing to be a fact.  Try overloading the PE to see what kind of result you get, and the next game try an overload of distro to the LP.  I can assure you that the one to the PE works much better than relying on the inside game.  Further, it seems to be more easy to shut down the inside game than the outside because the PE game is easier to disguise than the inside game, which lends to this premise.

HD says that the average team in RL makes around 32-34%% of their shots as 3 pt. attempts.  On one season,  I looked at the entire list of D-I teams in RL and found that only KS St. had reached the 32% mark for 3 pt. attempts.  Most were around 30%, or less, and one season TX made something like 25%.  Now, there are teams like Charleston that may hit 50% of their shots as 3 pt. attempts, but again, where do you find these teams placed in the NT. 

But how heavily threes are shot is a coach's CHOICE m- you want to dictate how many threes a coach wants to shoot?

 

6/11/2012 4:08 PM
Posted by nihl on 6/11/2012 3:34:00 PM (view original):
Though I may be wrong about its origination, I do know that certain high school coaches started using what ended up being called the double dribble motion.  This entailed using 4 guards, but on the whole, I suspect those teams were not very successful.  There are a number of college coaches that use a variation on this, but most of those are playing SF in the 4 slot.  HD did have a good idea in diversifying the skill sets of the players to represent the fact that a player may be athletic enough to play multiple positions, but my take is that they have overdone this.   A lot of these numbers end up being useless in the game, and in fact, I think they can relegate a player to that same status.  At D-I and with a SG that has, let's say, a 60 for both PE and LP will not play well at any slot unless they have numbers off the chart elsewhere.

Stew's original post is a good one because St. Bonnie in IBA made over 1000 3 pt. shots in a season.  Doing this made a mockery of the game because the SIM did not know what to do with it, and going +5 did not address the problem.   No team in RL would have won the NT doing that, and in fact, most college coaches do not like the 3 pt. shot for a number of reasons.  If you stop to think about it, what differentiated the big time programs with the Butler's of the world during NT play was the inside game.  In recent years, the small school programs have closed this advantage, but you still rarely see a team that doesn't have an inside game competing deep in the tournament.

HD has told me they have done things to limit the use of ridiculous distro overloads, I cannot dispute that, but do know this one thing to be a fact.  Try overloading the PE to see what kind of result you get, and the next game try an overload of distro to the LP.  I can assure you that the one to the PE works much better than relying on the inside game.  Further, it seems to be more easy to shut down the inside game than the outside because the PE game is easier to disguise than the inside game, which lends to this premise.

HD says that the average team in RL makes around 32-34%% of their shots as 3 pt. attempts.  On one season,  I looked at the entire list of D-I teams in RL and found that only KS St. had reached the 32% mark for 3 pt. attempts.  Most were around 30%, or less, and one season TX made something like 25%.  Now, there are teams like Charleston that may hit 50% of their shots as 3 pt. attempts, but again, where do you find these teams placed in the NT. 
I don't know where you got your stats from, but here are the 2011-2012 stats:

241 of 281 teams that shot 5 or more 3 point shots made more than 32.0%

You can go here to find that or any other stats you want to find:

http://www.ncaa.com/stats/basketball-men/d1
6/11/2012 4:27 PM
I kind of got the feeling he meant that 32% of their shots or made shots were 3s, as he was talking about frequency.  Worded it oddly, I agree.
6/11/2012 4:36 PM
None of you obviously watch Wisconsin.  Their NCAA game vs. Syracuse was an exercise in shooting as many 3s as possible.  And they almost beat a superior team too.
6/11/2012 4:53 PM
Posted by reinsel on 6/11/2012 4:53:00 PM (view original):
None of you obviously watch Wisconsin.  Their NCAA game vs. Syracuse was an exercise in shooting as many 3s as possible.  And they almost beat a superior team too.
Actually, I love Wisconsin.

Probably the most frustrating offense in all of college basketball to watch.  How a team can hit that many threes and still lose...

If only Taylor had missed by another inch, Bruiser would have caught that ball for a layup.
6/11/2012 5:06 PM
Posted by Trentonjoe on 6/11/2012 1:05:00 PM (view original):
I haven't seen a team start a G at PF.   I see G's at SF all the time and I salivate if I see the <10 in REB. 
www.whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/Schedule.aspx
6/11/2012 8:39 PM
Posted by isack24 on 6/11/2012 4:37:00 PM (view original):
I kind of got the feeling he meant that 32% of their shots or made shots were 3s, as he was talking about frequency.  Worded it oddly, I agree.
That's impossible. For 1000 made fgs, 320 were 3s.
6/11/2012 9:56 PM
Posted by Trentonjoe on 6/11/2012 1:05:00 PM (view original):
I haven't seen a team start a G at PF.   I see G's at SF all the time and I salivate if I see the <10 in REB. 
4-year starter at PF.  Frankly, he's the best player on a bad team right now.
6/11/2012 10:36 PM
Posted by tianyi7886 on 6/11/2012 9:56:00 PM (view original):
Posted by isack24 on 6/11/2012 4:37:00 PM (view original):
I kind of got the feeling he meant that 32% of their shots or made shots were 3s, as he was talking about frequency.  Worded it oddly, I agree.
That's impossible. For 1000 made fgs, 320 were 3s.
Sorry, not sure I follow.  Why is what I said impossible?  Or are you saying that that couldn't have been what he meant?

I only assumed that because I know there are a bunch of teams who shoot over 32% from 3 every season, so didn't think he could have meant that.  
6/11/2012 10:54 PM
Posted by isack24 on 6/11/2012 10:54:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tianyi7886 on 6/11/2012 9:56:00 PM (view original):
Posted by isack24 on 6/11/2012 4:37:00 PM (view original):
I kind of got the feeling he meant that 32% of their shots or made shots were 3s, as he was talking about frequency.  Worded it oddly, I agree.
That's impossible. For 1000 made fgs, 320 were 3s.
Sorry, not sure I follow.  Why is what I said impossible?  Or are you saying that that couldn't have been what he meant?

I only assumed that because I know there are a bunch of teams who shoot over 32% from 3 every season, so didn't think he could have meant that.  
The average among hd teams for 3pt shots made as a % of fgm is much lower than 32%, especially when you throw in the # of teams that barely shoot any 3s into the average. Pretty sure that poster got some bad info from CS. 
6/11/2012 11:14 PM
Gotcha.  Yeah, I don't really know what he was saying.  That was just my guess.  Bad info from CS wouldn't really be a shock.
6/11/2012 11:40 PM
IMO - The issue isnt with the engine, its with the coaches.   For some reason most coaches on WIS refuse to go to +3, +4,+5 defenses.  Even when faced with a perimeter loaded team.      Many still go -def when attempting to pull an upset figuring they have a better chance of the opponent having an off night.

In real life, coaches game plan to guard the perimeter much more than they do here.
6/12/2012 10:28 AM
That's probably true to some extent, mully.

The bigger problem, in my opinion, is high ath/lp guards who are unstoppable because, as I understand it, there is no defensive setting that actually stops driving guards.  Common sense would indicate the a heavy (-) def would do the trick, but apparently and nonsensically, (-5) fouls more against a driving guard than a (0) alignment, or so I'm told.

I D1, where there are a bunch of 90+ ath/def guys, you can minimze the damage.  In D3, I often see teams with minimal talent beyond heavy guard ath/spd win titles because they draw like 40 fouls every game, even against good def ratings.  In my opinion, that's where the guard play really is the problem, not with 3-pt shooting.
6/12/2012 11:09 AM
This won't be much of a problem any longer by the looks of the upcoming recruits in Iba.  There are almost no guards to be had.  We'll be playing PF's at the PG position.
6/12/2012 11:22 AM
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