Same Successful Recruiting Strategy For Everyone? Topic

tianyi7886
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Posted by jsajsa on 8/24/2012 1:05:00 PM (view original):
Johnson St did it in Crum 6(?) seasons ago - with elite PER/SP and ridicously elite rebounding. It was an upset, but it can happen. Sorry to ruin the challenge for you, KB, but you can still try it yourself.
How about we see some rosters?
8/24/2012 1:08 PM
jsajsa
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How about WIS save ratings for us? lol

You'd have to ask z3sus if he saved his old team's ratings, it was his squad.
8/24/2012 1:10 PM
tianyi7886
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There is a world of difference between winning with "elite per/sp and ridiculous elite rebounding" and winning with "40 team ath and 40 team def at D3." I'll bet you a pretty nickel his ath/def are pretty good, probably at least in the high 40s. 
8/24/2012 1:28 PM
bhansalid00
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I think the fact that, between all of us, we can think of one case where it MAY have happened, proves the point. Yeah, it's probably theoretically possible to seriously compete for a title with just average ATH and DEF, but you would need to (a) be off-the-charts great at probably 2-3 other ratings, and (b) be really lucky in your matchups in the NT. To me, that's not much of a strategy.

The much, much more straightforward path is to build on a foundation of very good (not necessarily elite, but very good) overall team ATH and DEF, and then layer specialized players on top of that (for example, one guy who's a pure point, 1-2 elite rebounders, a couple of big-time scorers, etc.) I think that was billyg's point as well. It's not that ATH and DEF on their own will make you a contender, and there are many different ways to build a winner on top of an overall ATH/DEF foundation. That's where good team planning, the profile of your nearby recruiting pool, and your own personal preferences come in. But it's almost impossible to build a winner without that foundation.
8/24/2012 1:29 PM
jsajsa
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Posted by tianyi7886 on 8/24/2012 1:28:00 PM (view original):
There is a world of difference between winning with "elite per/sp and ridiculous elite rebounding" and winning with "40 team ath and 40 team def at D3." I'll bet you a pretty nickel his ath/def are pretty good, probably at least in the high 40s. 
Actually, I remember for sure they weren't. ATH may have been low 40s but defense may have been mid 30s. That was his style - until moving up to DII this season I never saw his team defense rating above 40.
8/24/2012 1:31 PM
tianyi7886
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Posted by jsajsa on 8/24/2012 1:31:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tianyi7886 on 8/24/2012 1:28:00 PM (view original):
There is a world of difference between winning with "elite per/sp and ridiculous elite rebounding" and winning with "40 team ath and 40 team def at D3." I'll bet you a pretty nickel his ath/def are pretty good, probably at least in the high 40s. 
Actually, I remember for sure they weren't. ATH may have been low 40s but defense may have been mid 30s. That was his style - until moving up to DII this season I never saw his team defense rating above 40.
I'll only believe it when I see a roster. The relationship between ath/def is pretty strong, which has been brought up in various threads. To have an 8-10 point gap for team average for ath/def is huge. 
8/24/2012 1:40 PM
bistiza
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Wow I am stunned by the revelations I"m getting in this thread.

I now understand why my teams aren't NT contenders. Even when I try to recruit for ATH, DEF, and other stuff too, I usually don't have teams who average much above 50 in either of those categories, and if I do, it's because we lack somewhere else.

I'm not sure how so many of you get the players you need at DIII who have ATH, DEF, and then on top of that are also good at one or two other things.

Seems to me there aren't very many of those types of players at DIII or even as possible DII drop downs.
8/24/2012 1:45 PM
jsajsa
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Tell that to my DVC team that started this season 58 ATH 50 DEF ;), gap is slowly closing though. And I never said his gap was that far apart either, but again, you'd have to ask z3sus if he saved that team's ratings. You don't have to believe it for it to have happened.

8/24/2012 1:49 PM
isack24
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I don't think that's true anymore, tianyi.  Obviously there's still a correlation, but I don't think it's the stirct 1:1 we were seeing a year or two ago.

Take my Hamline squad from this year: http://whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/Ratings.aspx?tid=3795

8/24/2012 2:04 PM (edited)
isack24
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To the original point, isn't that really how it should be?

Obviously you can combine and build around ath and def however you want to try to make the best possible team, but how many teams in the history of college basketball have been really successful with really average athleticism and defense?
8/24/2012 2:03 PM
zbrent716
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Posted by tianyi7886 on 8/24/2012 1:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jsajsa on 8/24/2012 1:31:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tianyi7886 on 8/24/2012 1:28:00 PM (view original):
There is a world of difference between winning with "elite per/sp and ridiculous elite rebounding" and winning with "40 team ath and 40 team def at D3." I'll bet you a pretty nickel his ath/def are pretty good, probably at least in the high 40s. 
Actually, I remember for sure they weren't. ATH may have been low 40s but defense may have been mid 30s. That was his style - until moving up to DII this season I never saw his team defense rating above 40.
I'll only believe it when I see a roster. The relationship between ath/def is pretty strong, which has been brought up in various threads. To have an 8-10 point gap for team average for ath/def is huge. 
It's not common, but I don't think it's quite as rare to have that size gap as you do, tianyi. A quick look at Tark D3, sorted by Ath shows at least a couple this season (Hampden-Sydney: 56-49=7; Mass Liberal Arts: 54-47=7; Wooster: 54-44=10). Interestingly, if you sort by D, therearea couple with the higher D as well.

Not saying there isn't a (very strong) relationship, just that the exceptions may not be quite as exceptional as you may think.


8/24/2012 2:04 PM
zbrent716
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Posted by isack24 on 8/24/2012 2:04:00 PM (view original):
I don't think that's true anymore, tianyi.  Obviously there's still a correlation, but I don't think it's the stirct 1:1 we were seeing a year or two ago.

Take my Hamline squad from this year: http://whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/Ratings.aspx?tid=3795

OT: Hamline is awesome.
8/24/2012 2:08 PM
isack24
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Posted by zbrent716 on 8/24/2012 2:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by isack24 on 8/24/2012 2:04:00 PM (view original):
I don't think that's true anymore, tianyi.  Obviously there's still a correlation, but I don't think it's the stirct 1:1 we were seeing a year or two ago.

Take my Hamline squad from this year: http://whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/Ratings.aspx?tid=3795

OT: Hamline is awesome.
Ha, I know, we are the two long-time Hamilne coaches of whom I am aware.

I'm actually a real life alum, as well. 
8/24/2012 2:10 PM
zbrent716
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Posted by isack24 on 8/24/2012 2:10:00 PM (view original):
Posted by zbrent716 on 8/24/2012 2:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by isack24 on 8/24/2012 2:04:00 PM (view original):
I don't think that's true anymore, tianyi.  Obviously there's still a correlation, but I don't think it's the stirct 1:1 we were seeing a year or two ago.

Take my Hamline squad from this year: http://whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/Ratings.aspx?tid=3795

OT: Hamline is awesome.
Ha, I know, we are the two long-time Hamilne coaches of whom I am aware.

I'm actually a real life alum, as well. 
I'm not an alum, but a friend of mine from grad school was, and that's how I chose the school for HD. By the way, congrats on an awesome season. Sort of amazing that I might only have the second-best Hamline team right now.
8/24/2012 2:20 PM
isack24
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Posted by zbrent716 on 8/24/2012 2:20:00 PM (view original):
Posted by isack24 on 8/24/2012 2:10:00 PM (view original):
Posted by zbrent716 on 8/24/2012 2:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by isack24 on 8/24/2012 2:04:00 PM (view original):
I don't think that's true anymore, tianyi.  Obviously there's still a correlation, but I don't think it's the stirct 1:1 we were seeing a year or two ago.

Take my Hamline squad from this year: http://whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/Ratings.aspx?tid=3795

OT: Hamline is awesome.
Ha, I know, we are the two long-time Hamilne coaches of whom I am aware.

I'm actually a real life alum, as well. 
I'm not an alum, but a friend of mine from grad school was, and that's how I chose the school for HD. By the way, congrats on an awesome season. Sort of amazing that I might only have the second-best Hamline team right now.
Appreciate it.  I assume you could have done better with this team.  I lost to a pretty good team with an amazing coach, but I was pretty clearly the favorite to win it all.  That's kind of my sales pitch with recruits: "I'll get a bunch of talent in here, but you guys are going to have to win it yourself because ny coaching sucks."
8/24/2012 2:35 PM
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