rogelio - I've only played 20 seasons but I still challenge your statement above.   I have NEVER had a player in the black not improve wither LP or PER a single point with 10+ mins of practice time.  it's not like is WE is under 10.

Even most low potential ratings improve 2-3 pts over the course of the season.  To me, this is clearly an issue with the "improvement" logic not resetting after his FR year.  (or however you want to word the coding error)

Quote post by rogelio on 5/1/2014 8:38:00 AM:

agreed 100%. when i started reading the forums many years ago (in the pre-potential era) "diminishing returns" was a concept most vets threw around as a concept that we'd all better understand and appreciate if we were to maximize our practice minutes. this was confirmed as a hard fact when potential was rolled out and we were told that as a player nears his potential, the improvements will slow down. couple this factor with low WE and minimal practice time, and i'd say that the improvement is justifiably negligible. i say negligible rather than absent because there is likely fractional improvement that we can't see. however, if even the minimal, unobservable improvement is not happening, i would agree 100% that this is a glitch.

Sully - do you track your player's growth each season?  if so,  not sure how you can argue that a starter with a BLACK rating and a WE >10 shouldn't improve by 1 point over the course of a season.

you are failing to comprehend that not all black ratings are equal and CAPS BOLD UNDERLINE does not change that. as a rule of thumb for my own practice plans, 10 minutes is the minimum i give any practice area before it is maxed out; 11 minutes is not that impressive. similarly, your standard of >10 WE is dubious. i've found that < 30 WE you are going to struggle to improve; < 20 you are not going to improve; and < 10 you will actually decline over the course of a career (though this latter "fact" is from second hand, forum reading...i've never recruited a sub 10 WE player and rarely if ever venture to sign a sub 20 recruit). and starting has no effect on improvement, so i'm not sure the significance of you even mentioning it. 

i hope this recent discussion helps. 

I am fully aware what drives ratings improvements.    I guess we will agree to disagree on whether this player should have improved at least  1 point this season and leave it at that.

Posted by dacj501 on 5/1/2014 8:48:00 AM (view original):

Posted by rogelio on 5/1/2014 8:38:00 AM (view original):

Posted by hughesjr on 5/1/2014 2:52:00 AM (view original):
I am not sure this is really a bug. The user has it within their capability to prevent this behavior and chose not to.

The user is purposely under practicing on an attribute that is red and it is dropping .. Then later, putting minutes back in and wanting to go back up. That same user has the ability to use enough minutes to hold the attribute at its initial value, but chose to instead let it drop.

The argument can be made that the player has already reached a mental block in this attribute (it is red, so he is close to maxing out), and you are then stopping his pratice in that area. His skill then goes down by the coaches choice (lack of practice on purpose). So in reality, the coach caused the issue by taking away minutes from an area .. I have never seen this because I leave enough minutes in areas that I care about so they don't drop (5 for most attributes, 2 for LP or PER).

So is it really a bug .. The player can not get better in this area by design, so don't let him drop. If you do let him drop, he can't get any better because he has already reached his learning ability in this area .. But this is by your choice and totally avoidable by the coach.

Hughes, in Stamina it's a "known bug".  The drop that you're attributing to the user is actually only the offseason drop that is more pronounced in stamina than any other attribute.  If Stamina starts out Low-Low, it may even go up 1 point during the freshman year, then, each offseason, it will drop 2-3 points.  

I've had players practice a minimum of 25 minutes in conditioning running up to 40+ after maxing out in everything else and gotten either none or only 1 point improvement and finish their senior season showing *black*.  So, it's the offseason drop that causes the issue.  The glitch is that it doesn't recover like a normal *black* rating should.

My issue here is that 11 minutes of LP practice for the season at a sub-30 WE is simply not enough to rule out that there is no issue.  The fact that REB improved by 3 may simply demonstrate that REB had quite a bit more room to improve and started with a far lower initial number.

doesn't track I don't think -&#160;<br /> <br /> for this season improvement it doesnt matter what they started at initially, its what they start at this season. Reb started at 88, lp at 87 and (I'm inferring, don't think it was explicited stated) both were average potential. Even if reb had 12 remaining and lp only 4 (dont remember if OP said when it went to black) it shouldn't be able to go up by 3 with less minutes while lp (or anything) goes up 0 I don't think.<br /> This sound exactly like the offseason virus (inaccurately known as the Stamina bug)

I didn't recheck the ratings, you're right to point that out, but I don't think your conclusion is justified on these facts.  I am only saying that this anecdotal evidence doesn't convince me that the issue is not limited to Stamina.  

I agree to assume that the REB CAP was probably 100 and the LP CAP was ~95 (and started at 88/87 respectively).  We know that LP practice was 11.  Was REB also practiced only 11?  I'm sure it was practiced more.  Mully could clear that up.   Maybe I'll be proved wrong, but I suspect that 11 minutes of practice simply not enough to budge LP at borderline red.

Also, in the spirit of your post, -&#; <br /> OMAHA! OMA-HA! <br />

Posted by rogelio on 5/1/2014 8:38:00 AM (view original):

Posted by hughesjr on 5/1/2014 2:52:00 AM (view original):
I am not sure this is really a bug. The user has it within their capability to prevent this behavior and chose not to.

The user is purposely under practicing on an attribute that is red and it is dropping .. Then later, putting minutes back in and wanting to go back up. That same user has the ability to use enough minutes to hold the attribute at its initial value, but chose to instead let it drop.

The argument can be made that the player has already reached a mental block in this attribute (it is red, so he is close to maxing out), and you are then stopping his pratice in that area. His skill then goes down by the coaches choice (lack of practice on purpose). So in reality, the coach caused the issue by taking away minutes from an area .. I have never seen this because I leave enough minutes in areas that I care about so they don't drop (5 for most attributes, 2 for LP or PER).

So is it really a bug .. The player can not get better in this area by design, so don't let him drop. If you do let him drop, he can't get any better because he has already reached his learning ability in this area .. But this is by your choice and totally avoidable by the coach.

Hughes, in Stamina it's a "known bug".  The drop that you're attributing to the user is actually only the offseason drop that is more pronounced in stamina than any other attribute.  If Stamina starts out Low-Low, it may even go up 1 point during the freshman year, then, each offseason, it will drop 2-3 points.  

I've had players practice a minimum of 25 minutes in conditioning running up to 40+ after maxing out in everything else and gotten either none or only 1 point improvement and finish their senior season showing *black*.  So, it's the offseason drop that causes the issue.  The glitch is that it doesn't recover like a normal *black* rating should.

My issue here is that 11 minutes of LP practice for the season at a sub-30 WE is simply not enough to rule out that there is no issue.  The fact that REB improved by 3 may simply demonstrate that REB had quite a bit more room to improve and started with a far lower initial number.

I agree it is a BUG in stamina (as far as the off season drop part and then you can't make it up) .. my point is that OTHER than that one case, if people don't assign the correct amount of practice, it might not be a bug for the rest.

with 26 work ethic and 11 minutes in lp, i am not buying this guy wouldn't gain 1. 11 minutes in anything but lp/per, maybe, but this guy plays huge minutes, his lp break even point is probably at most 2 minutes (instead of the guaranteed 3 max for a 1we 0m played player). thats 9 extra minutes over break even, with 26we and 26mpg, i just am not seeing it. i strongly believe this guy would have gained 1.

further, as i said earlier, seble already confirmed this bug to me in a ticket, and indicated it was not just limited to stamina. at least, that how i read it, he didn't say it DEFINITELY wasn't limited to stamina but he talked about it like it was a general bug, which makes sense, as all the improvement logic is basically the same, it would be weird if it was just stamina. the only reason we see stamina is because thats where the major offseason decreases are. and to whomever said its the coaches fault for not practicing, thats not true, its offseason decreases and further, players don't have feelings, they don't give up on a rating forever because you stop practicing it for a while. they don't have mental blocks. every practice is independently computed from all other practices, there is no dependence between one practice settings and the next, whatsoever. recruiting is one thing, and there are specific cases where players are built to behave differently, but we are pretty much aware of all those things, and none have anything to do with practice or in-game play.

This turned out eerily similar to my ticket from 3 years ago where CS tried to tell me everything was fine because he was improving fractions of a point.

It's definitely a bug, imo.

i hope we all accept the possibility that the rating has increased by a point, we just can't see it. if at the beginning of the season, the rating was 86.51, and now its 87.49, the rating has, in fact, improved an unobservable 1 point.

though i admit with gillispie confirming that seble admitted a bug, glitch, hiccup, etc. its obviously less likely (though still wholly possible) that the engine is running as it should be.

Posted by killbatman on 5/1/2014 12:41:00 PM (view original):
This turned out eerily similar to my ticket from 3 years ago where CS tried to tell me everything was fine because he was improving fractions of a point.

It's definitely a bug, imo.

i was writing my message at the same time as you wrote yours. cs and i think alike. i don't think this is a case of 'great minds...' dammit.

Posted by sullytoo on 5/1/2014 12:46:00 PM (view original):

Posted by killbatman on 5/1/2014 12:41:00 PM (view original):
This turned out eerily similar to my ticket from 3 years ago where CS tried to tell me everything was fine because he was improving fractions of a point.

It's definitely a bug, imo.

i was writing my message at the same time as you wrote yours. cs and i think alike. i don't think this is a case of 'great minds...' dammit.

I agree with the point that there are cases where it might be confusing.  e.g. single digit WE, limited PT and practice min.  I can *imagine* a scenario where it might seem like a bug, but isn't.  I just don't think this is one of those times.

rogelio, 

Less practice time into rebounding and that still went up by 3.  To not have LP go up by a single point is a glitch.
LP went from red to black between 87-89 so I am guessing the cap was at about 96.

From one of mully's earlier posts - he says less minutes (less than 11) in rebounding to get that 3 point gain, starting from same place. I'm not buying a fractional increase, especiially when its lp (or per) which seem to have (or may have) different growth curves (but regardless of that, I still wouldn't buy it.) 

We know there's a bug, why couldn't it apply to other categories? 

Zach,

This falls into a scenario where the player had very little potential as a recruit, then drops below his start rating. This causes extremely slow improvement, even though there is now more room to improve.

It's a known weakness in the current player improvement logic. Unfortunately, in order to fix this issue we'd have to completely redo the improvement formulas. This is on the agenda, but I can't say when it will be done.

Posted by mully1 on 5/1/2014 4:14:00 PM (view original):
Zach,

This falls into a scenario where the player had very little potential as a recruit, then drops below his start rating. This causes extremely slow improvement, even though there is now more room to improve.

It's a known weakness in the current player improvement logic. Unfortunately, in order to fix this issue we'd have to completely redo the improvement formulas. This is on the agenda, but I can't say when it will be done.

weakness... well at least now we know why hes calling it a weakness, or a quirk, or whatever else :) its a BUG. just one he doesn't want to fix. i figured it had to be a pain in the *** or else he wouldn't keep using these strange words. any time one of my guys tells me there is a "quirk" or "limitation" causing a problem, it sends up big red flags... but only because i've learned through experience, i'd much rather have a bug the guys think they can fix, than a glitch they can't or really don't want to. plus, a bug usually comes with the appropriate level of understanding to fix it... quirks and limitations, if you get straight answers on whats wrong, you have to check which end of the programmer/systems guy they are coming out of!

all in all, this isn't that bad a bug, if its really that nasty of a section to look into and understand, its likely to come with collateral damage. likely not worth the effort or disruption.