Posted by trophaeum on 1/10/2016 2:43:00 PM (view original):
I think people have a wrong view of what negativity is if they think this has been negative. This is a discussion of the shortcomings of the game, and why there are so few coaches and so many worlds. If you can't have a frank and honest discussion about it for "being negative" then nothing will get done...ever. This goes for the real world. You can't pretend there's no issues.

Discussing the cost of the game is a very real and appropriate issue to ponder, especially considering WIS has put almost no effort into the game for years. $12.95 seems awfully high when a full season on netfllx or hulu costs half that.

I admit that for me, $12.95 doesn't matter. But I understand everyone has different situations and considerations. It might be an issue. I just don't think it's the biggest issue.

Posted by gillispie1 on 1/10/2016 11:40:00 AM (view original):
i think this is a tough game for folks who are really focused on "getting to the destination", whatever that is. its always a strange thing to me personally, to hear stuff like, "once i get max level and get all this stuff THEN i can actually play for real". F that. i don't want to play something that sucks for months to get to something that is fun, i only want to play if its fun along the way. i think HD is fun along the way, many of my best memories of HD are in the lower divisions, so that's why it worked for me. i am a goal-driven guy, just not a destination-driven guy. my first big goal was to win a d3 title, and i was able to feel like i was in contention for that pretty quick, my 5th season i pulled a 1 seed (and lost in the 2nd round to a -5 slowdown, but still). from there on out, the hunt was on...

anyway, i wonder how many folks are really destination-driven folks, who having a 15 season walk to high d1 is really something they worry about on day 1 and are turned off by? versus how many just want to enjoy something along the way, and look at different parts of the game as a way of keeping things fresh over time? maybe its just a small segment of people who are happy to just enjoy it along the way, and thats part of why WIS struggles? i suppose HD is not an instant gratification kind of thing, which is big these days - but then again, MMORPGs have been wildly successful - and they have a long grind before you can get to the high stages. 

When I started, my goal was to be the coach at UNLV, my alma mater. So I finally got to low D1 and I just hated it. I can't explain why but I hated D2 and I hated D1. So now it's like meh. I'm happy in D3 and don't really have much immediate interest in D1. One day I may try again but I think some of us in the game just prefer D3 and others don't.

To me, the game is incredibly boring other than recruiting and the NT, so that's why I've left worlds before. But perhaps that's my fault, I'm not sure. I don't think new coaches care about cost at all. In my opinion, the best solution to the new coach retainment problem would be to set some sort of "term limits" on the time coaches can spend in DIII. Reach an arbitrary number of career wins and you must apply for a DII job. I think it would make DII really great and at the same time make DIII more competitive for newer, lesser players

To me, the fun is in the competition. So if you have a strong league with good coaches, it's fun to compete. That's why (no offense to anyone) I just don't get the appeal of an empty league. I don't think it is much fun to play sims. One of the things I'm proud of is my record versus citizenkyle in USAS Knight. Elite coach who wins at a high level but I can nip him at home and we have a great rivalry within conference. Same with Bon and PBAU and I'm sure it will be the case with tcorb who joined recently. To me, thats what it's about. That's why coach retention is the MOST important topic for the game. If there is no one who stays long enough to build that rivalry, the game to me is boring. That's what I find boring.

Recruiting is fun only because I need to reload to compete with my rivals. Hopefully that makes sense.

Ill just say personally money isn't an issue for me, I clearly don't have a problem since I have teams in every world and dobuled the 2x worlds.  But I think for attracting new people the upfront cost can probably turn people off, in the long run it isn't expensive, just upfront it is pretty hefty.

Mainly for me it is the length of time, that was at least my biggest focus.

Posted by kbc167 on 1/10/2016 4:51:00 PM (view original):
Only, I completely disagree about money being a factor. It's not that expensive of a game. I do think they should sell the first coach a 3 season deal or something because one season means nothing. My first season in HD was at Cal Tech Tark and I think I won 2 games. Maybe 8 total in the first 3 seasons. I had no idea what I was doing. But I'm competitive and fought the urge to quit and also asked a million questions to better coaches and got better. A lot of people get frustrated and quit.

Two: I think new coaches need mentoring. Maybe formalizing that somehow or making it easier and clear to new coaches that they should each out via the forums and really engage and learn the game.

To me, one place where we completely agree is that everyone joins to be in D1. But in reality most coaches need to learn D3 before they worry about D1. It's taken me two years in D3 just to finally win a title. Zorzii is dead on. This game takes 6 months to a year just to get competent for most people. Another place I think is just spot on in your post: one a day worlds are TOO SLOW. I keep thinking I'll add a 4th team but it's just mind numbing. If I want to do a rebuild in a one a day world, it's something like 5 or 6 months before I can complete that rebuild. I just don't have that kind of patience for an online game. I think two a day are perfect. It moves briskly.

Nobody will stay in the game if they feel isolated or on their own. I've said it a million times. WIS has to figure out ways to make it easier to keep all the coaches engaged with one another. Most of us on the forum will speak up but a lot of coaches go it alone and so when they decide to quit, who's going to care? But if you're in a good league with supportive coaches who want to help and then compete with you, it makes it so much harder to quit. At least for me. There are a group of coaches in this game that are leaders who go out and corral people together and that makes the game amazing. People like only, zorzii and many others. Imagine if every world and every division had a coach who wrote up pre season predictions and post season thoughts like in knight and phelan. Something more engaging and interesting. What if the "news" feed was actually news and not system generated bs? I think they should give 1 coach in every world and division free HD service in exchange for being the moderator of the division and in charge of writing up what's going on to keep people interested. It works.

I REALLY like the 3 season deal idea. Instead of "try HD for $4.95" they should give you 3 seasons for $4.95. That way you get them hooked and they'll be fine paying a TAD bit more with the multi packs.

I get that for you, a person with multiple teams, 1 a day is too slow. But for a new user who only has 1 team? 

Yep. Length of time is brutal. And a lot of that time there is little to do except wait. Not exactly an exciting game to play then

Benis,think about it this way: I'm a new player just learning the game. How do I learn the game the best? By experience is how. Every team I coach (as a new coach) and every failure or success, I'm learning things about the game. That's why when I started I quickly had 7 or 8 teams. I wanted to get better and it's hard to learn with a one a day team because it's so slow. Would you agree that recruiting is the most important part of success ultimately? Well if I (as a new coach) screw that up it could take MONTHS to undo it in a one a day world. I would argue the opposite of your point. New coaches need more games faster, not less. Otherwise new coaches may lose interest long before they start winning.

One thing that's apparent to me from this thread is that we (the coaches) can hold diametrically opposed opinions and be certain that we are not only right, but that we speak for others.  We can believe 1-a-day worlds are too slow or just right.  We can believe cost is an issue or it is not.  We can believe new people join to get to D1 as fast as possible, or for a multitude of other reasons.   

Speaking for myself, one-a-day seems ideal.  Two-a-day would not work at all.  And I have very, very little interest in D1, although that might change, of course.  Is the game too tough to learn?  I don't know, I am still learning.  I like the game so far.  Are empty or full conferences more enjoyable?  I have no idea yet.  But I will eventually form my own opinion on that, and all the proselytizing in the world in the forums won't be an influence.

The takeaway: we speak for ourselves, only.

Off topic: do the thumbs-up and thumbs-down thingy's at the top of each post actually work?  I tried to give a post a thuimbs-up, but nothing seemed to happen.  Thanks.

Posted by CoachSpud on 1/10/2016 6:43:00 PM (view original):
One thing that's apparent to me from this thread is that we (the coaches) can hold diametrically opposed opinions and be certain that we are not only right, but that we speak for others.  We can believe 1-a-day worlds are too slow or just right.  We can believe cost is an issue or it is not.  We can believe new people join to get to D1 as fast as possible, or for a multitude of other reasons.   

Speaking for myself, one-a-day seems ideal.  Two-a-day would not work at all.  And I have very, very little interest in D1, although that might change, of course.  Is the game too tough to learn?  I don't know, I am still learning.  I like the game so far.  Are empty or full conferences more enjoyable?  I have no idea yet.  But I will eventually form my own opinion on that, and all the proselytizing in the world in the forums won't be an influence.

The takeaway: we speak for ourselves, only.

Off topic: do the thumbs-up and thumbs-down thingy's at the top of each post actually work?  I tried to give a post a thuimbs-up, but nothing seemed to happen.  Thanks.

Very fair point Spud. However, I disagree slightly. My opinion has been generated based upon actual experience. I have recruited a bunch of friends to this game. 5 of them decided to quit after 2-3 seasons (and another was very close to quitting but I convinced him to give it another go).

Now, there are definitely a ton of people that have left and I don't know what they thought about the game and why they've left (obviously) but I do have a few examples to pull my opinion from. The money thing comes to mind as something that I perceive as not a big deal because all my friends have jobs and don't have a problem paying money to play a game they enjoy so a different demographic would probably feel differently.

Posted by kbc167 on 1/10/2016 5:39:00 PM (view original):
Benis,think about it this way: I'm a new player just learning the game. How do I learn the game the best? By experience is how. Every team I coach (as a new coach) and every failure or success, I'm learning things about the game. That's why when I started I quickly had 7 or 8 teams. I wanted to get better and it's hard to learn with a one a day team because it's so slow. Would you agree that recruiting is the most important part of success ultimately? Well if I (as a new coach) screw that up it could take MONTHS to undo it in a one a day world. I would argue the opposite of your point. New coaches need more games faster, not less. Otherwise new coaches may lose interest long before they start winning.

Fair point, I understand what you're saying. It's puzzling for sure because I see some coaches out there who have played several seasons (6+) and only win a handful of games every season. But they don't go on the forums and try to learn about the game and get better. I feel like all the knowledge gained by reading posts on the forums is almost more valuable than the actual experience. Yes, the experience is a must and you need that for sure but if they don't want to get better by learning, it could be a 10x world and they'd still lose most of their games.

Posted by CoachSpud on 1/10/2016 6:43:00 PM (view original):
One thing that's apparent to me from this thread is that we (the coaches) can hold diametrically opposed opinions and be certain that we are not only right, but that we speak for others.  We can believe 1-a-day worlds are too slow or just right.  We can believe cost is an issue or it is not.  We can believe new people join to get to D1 as fast as possible, or for a multitude of other reasons.   

Speaking for myself, one-a-day seems ideal.  Two-a-day would not work at all.  And I have very, very little interest in D1, although that might change, of course.  Is the game too tough to learn?  I don't know, I am still learning.  I like the game so far.  Are empty or full conferences more enjoyable?  I have no idea yet.  But I will eventually form my own opinion on that, and all the proselytizing in the world in the forums won't be an influence.

The takeaway: we speak for ourselves, only.

Off topic: do the thumbs-up and thumbs-down thingy's at the top of each post actually work?  I tried to give a post a thuimbs-up, but nothing seemed to happen.  Thanks.

It's hardly proselytizing. It's just called debate. That's what the forum is for. Far be it for me to speak for other coaches but I do think I am when I say that there are a thousand different ways to view the game and the only thing that is safe to say that experienced coaches have broad agreement on is that we all see some room for improvement. Some see very small things, other see major ones.

But I think what harms HD also is apathy. So people voicing I desires for the game is a lot better than no one saying anything. So if some of us have invested years into the game and feel the need to debate our thoughts on what we want to see changed, I don't think that is proselytizing.
I think that is healthy.

All popular games that I have seen have 1 major common factor, and that is they all have a large amount of younger people more specifically about 12-24. These people most likely do not have a steady flow of income so for them money is the biggest factor. But what they do have a lot of spare time and they easily get addicted to games. If WIS wants to hit on this important demographic they should lower the price for like the first 5 seasons to about 5.00$.

This is looking at it from purely a business standpoint, if you get a lot more users to join the game for a slightly smaller price you still make a bigger profit even if your profit per person is smaller. In order to get the users to join in the first place you need to lower the starting price so it doesn't look rediculus even if the people that have played it know it is well worth it.

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 1/10/2016 8:56:00 PM (view original):
All popular games that I have seen have 1 major common factor, and that is they all have a large amount of younger people more specifically about 12-24. These people most likely do not have a steady flow of income so for them money is the biggest factor. But what they do have a lot of spare time and they easily get addicted to games. If WIS wants to hit on this important demographic they should lower the price for like the first 5 seasons to about 5.00$.

Doesn't matter how much something costs. If you don't know about it, you can't purchase it.