"I'm not really interested in catering the game to people who want to dominate D2/3." I get that. And neither are most of the guys who have played for quite a while. That's why thread after thread after thread are all about giving more and more advantages to D1 and seeing no problem in making D3 a wasteland. But WIS cannot have that kind of tunnel vision. D2/D2 will always have more humans than D1. "Yeah, I totally agree that if you're WIS, you want to retain new coaches and that should be a big priority." Limiting their rosters to garbage is not the answer.

Posted by Benis on 11/2/2016 4:05:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 11/2/2016 3:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 11/2/2016 3:41:00 PM (view original):
"But mostly, I want D1 to be fun, that should be priority #1. I'm not really interested in catering the game to people who want to dominate D2/3."

I want ALL the levels to be fun. They should all be fun and all have various differences and based upon preferences people will like either of them or all of them.

I don't think 2.0 or 3.0 either have a system to dominate at D3. There is kinda, sorta parity currently where you can take over a SIM team that has a bunch of upperclassmen and take it to the NT. But I'm still in the camp that this will go away with 3.0 since all human coached teams will be improving (not just the top teams) and simmy will still be the same. There will be LESS parity among all of D3 in general as new coaches take over sims and then have to face not just powerhouse teams (similar to the CNU team linked) but basically all human teams with decent coaches will be like this. So instead of getting crushed by me by 50 points once or twice in division play, they get to be crushed 8-10 times. Yay for them.

I don't really disagree. If I'm WIS, I want players like you and me to move up to D1 anyway. It's why most coaches sign up, and it should be the centerpiece of the game. The novelty of having those long term communities of long term (and wildly successful) coaches in D2/3 was nice for those communities, but not necessarily nice for business, for some of the reasons you bring up. I'm not convinced that Joe Newbie is going to be facing more and more dominant teams in D3 version 3.0, but even if he is, I think D3 should be designed as a place to learn the game, then move on from. I mostly don't want him to care (if I'm WIS) about winning D3 championships nearly as much as what it takes to get him up the chain.

Yeah, I totally agree that if you're WIS, you want to retain new coaches and that should be a big priority. And making D3 a slaughterhouse isn't the way to do it. How do you encourage coaches to move up though? Or do you force them to move up?

I suspect a lot of players who park at D2/3 originally signed up intending to move to D1 as soon as they could. But the logjam at Big 6 coupled with poorly thought out hiring/firing requirements, coupled with the fact that D1 in 2.0 just wasn't much fun for most of them, recruiting battles at D2/3 were actually more interesting and fun; I think all that conspired to cause an undue number of coaches to get unduly attached to their precious little CNU and ACU. Not to mention the incentive system that was gamed by a ton of us to use D2/3 dominance to supply credit storehouses for D1 programs.

I dont know how the specifics look, and frankly I'm glad it's not my job. But I'm pretty sure making D1 the best and most competitive game it can be, and then encouraging/incentivizing coaches to move toward it quickly, using D3 as a learning platform, and D2 as an intermediate or career-rebuilding step is the path they want to get on.

Not that long ago, d2 and d3 were where the most fair, competitive game could be found... for me.

I found d1 boring after ~45 seasons at an ACC school, dropped back down to where there was no built-in prestige edge for certain schools (including the one I was leaving), and found the game to be more fun.

I've always had teams at multiple levels at the same time, and would like to carry on doing that... we'll see where this goes, but I'm enjoying recruiting at d2 and d3 now, and think the powerful teams will indeed even out soon enough-- there're probably going to be a few hilariously good d2 and d3 teams in the less-populated world.

I don't know why they'd want to force-feed people upward. My conferences at the lower levels have always been very helpful to newbies, and the game is more fun when you have interactions with humans, as well as have some clue what you're doing.

Guys, I was wrong. I looked at the ratings of D3 teams and they are garbage. Ugh. They're so bad. I can't believe anyone finds it ANY fun to play D3 because the teams are just so bad. I mean, look at this

This one team only had 3 guys with ATH over 80. LOL! And this other coach only has 3 guys with SPD over 90. LMAO!!

	A	SPD	REB	DE	BLK	LP	PE	BH	P	WE	ST	DU	FT	TOT
D3 Team	66	43	29	71	27	26	32	26	20	54	79	67	C	540
D3 Team	65	54	37	65	32	38	42	42	36	55	78	59	C+	603
D3 Team	61	42	43	60	31	29	26	37	34	50	80	53	C+	544
D3 Team	60	51	32	68	26	39	35	36	36	61	77	57	C	579
D3 Team	59	51	31	58	23	28	40	45	33	59	77	52	C	554
D3 Team	58	49	41	59	31	37	47	40	31	55	74	62	C	584
D3 Team	57	53	44	60	33	30	40	48	45	46	75	59	C-	590
D3 Team	57	63	28	57	22	33	50	56	49	50	77	58	C	599
D3 Team	56	51	46	55	35	38	33	43	40	46	75	55	C	571
D3 Team	56	36	37	56	28	24	30	28	30	55	73	64	C	515
D3 Team	56	58	41	60	33	37	46	50	45	58	78	71	C	633
D3 Team	55	58	30	55	22	45	40	52	43	47	76	67	C+	590
D3 Team	55	58	41	52	34	31	40	45	47	56	80	63	C+	602
D3 Team	55	51	45	55	36	45	32	45	40	55	73	50	C	582
D3 Team	55	56	29	58	23	41	45	42	36	55	76	48	C+	562
D3 Team	55	47	38	55	30	30	38	34	37	56	73	57	B-	550
D3 Team	54	47	41	50	32	31	41	43	41	50	74	55	C	559
D3 Team	54	53	36	54	28	39	46	43	35	68	78	64	C	599
D3 Team	54	53	34	59	25	29	45	46	41	57	77	69	C+	591
D3 Team	54	52	40	56	37	39	25	38	29	48	76	64	C	557
D3 Team	54	47	38	51	31	28	28	43	37	43	78	51	C+	529
D3 Team	54	51	40	54	30	39	43	44	41	57	73	58	C+	583
D3 Team	53	46	45	57	38	44	41	43	40	65	82	67	C+	621
D3 Team	52	52	32	52	23	28	45	48	47	55	77	63	C	572
D3 Team	52	49	31	55	27	30	47	45	40	47	71	66	C	558

For some comparison to the teams above. I pulled the avg ratings for teams at D2 who are in the 50-65 range of the projection report (SIMS only, don't want to be mean to other coaches)

	A	SPD	REB	DE	BLK	LP	PE	BH	P	WE	ST	DU	FT	TOT
Truman	36	53	46	36	34	44	46	46	49	62	80	58	C+	591
CSU	52	47	40	51	32	38	41	45	48	62	81	66	C+	603
Livingstone	40	56	50	43	36	42	48	47	46	62	79	63	C+	612
C Wash	43	52	41	40	31	40	45	50	52	55	74	68	C+	592
Francis Marion	45	50	38	46	27	39	38	46	45	55	73	60	C+	561

I also copied the avg ratings for a few D1 teams that are in the 70-90ish on the projection report so are likely PIT bound (SIMs only again)

	A	SPD	REB	DE	BLK	LP	PE	BH	P	WE	ST	DU	FT	TOT
IPFW	61	52	41	63	32	49	48	47	46	59	82	62	B-	644
Northeastern	60	51	45	61	32	49	57	55	46	67	81	65	B-	670
Marist	59	51	47	60	40	52	53	48	44	71	78	65	B-	668
Air Force	58	59	46	58	38	49	45	49	55	58	78	64	B-	657
Montana	54	58	54	59	46	51	47	54	52	65	82	64	C+	688

So basically teams at D3 are already good enough to compete for the NT at D2. They'd still lose to the D1 PIT teams obviously (as it should be) but those numbers aren't a huge gulf like they should be IMHO.

Well .. if we add more time to second session recruiting where Div-II and Div-1 teams actually have time to unlock and recruit players, that will get partially solved.

LINK

Im not sure why WIS would or should care if coaches move up. I pay the same amount to play no matter what division I am in and as a business thats all I care about.

Posted by wronoj on 11/2/2016 6:26:00 PM (view original):
Not that long ago, d2 and d3 were where the most fair, competitive game could be found... for me.

I found d1 boring after ~45 seasons at an ACC school, dropped back down to where there was no built-in prestige edge for certain schools (including the one I was leaving), and found the game to be more fun.

I've always had teams at multiple levels at the same time, and would like to carry on doing that... we'll see where this goes, but I'm enjoying recruiting at d2 and d3 now, and think the powerful teams will indeed even out soon enough-- there're probably going to be a few hilariously good d2 and d3 teams in the less-populated world.

I don't know why they'd want to force-feed people upward. My conferences at the lower levels have always been very helpful to newbies, and the game is more fun when you have interactions with humans, as well as have some clue what you're doing.

To be clear, encouraging/incentivizing people to move up is not the same as forcing. I don't think anyone will ever force mfnmyers from Dickinson(s), if that's where he wants to be.

Just saying from WIS perspective, the first priority is to make D1 as enjoyable *and* competitive for as many people as possible. Everything else falls in line after that.

Posted by pkoopman on 11/2/2016 9:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wronoj on 11/2/2016 6:26:00 PM (view original):
Not that long ago, d2 and d3 were where the most fair, competitive game could be found... for me.

I found d1 boring after ~45 seasons at an ACC school, dropped back down to where there was no built-in prestige edge for certain schools (including the one I was leaving), and found the game to be more fun.

I've always had teams at multiple levels at the same time, and would like to carry on doing that... we'll see where this goes, but I'm enjoying recruiting at d2 and d3 now, and think the powerful teams will indeed even out soon enough-- there're probably going to be a few hilariously good d2 and d3 teams in the less-populated world.

I don't know why they'd want to force-feed people upward. My conferences at the lower levels have always been very helpful to newbies, and the game is more fun when you have interactions with humans, as well as have some clue what you're doing.

To be clear, encouraging/incentivizing people to move up is not the same as forcing. I don't think anyone will ever force mfnmyers from Dickinson(s), if that's where he wants to be.

Just saying from WIS perspective, the first priority is to make D1 as enjoyable *and* competitive for as many people as possible. Everything else falls in line after that.

The problem is you are forcing people to move up by gimping them at the lower levels. I know you don't want to cater to other coaches, because the idea of forcing people to play DI, since that is what they should want to do seems to be ideal to you. You have this large group of HD3.0 supporters who have said, "this update will give new guys an opportunity to compete against those guys who have been powerhouses at DIII and DII". Now you're all backtracking and your statement is this is going to be a learning ground for them and they should be "incentivized" to move up to DI, because the incentive is not getting dominated by the powerhouses that are going to be even bigger powerhouses than before. 17 seasons

The problem with those statements is that:

1. You should not have to force/ "incentivize" the customer to want to do something when they are content with the lower levels. You should maintain the best part of the game, which was the lower levels and work on improving the DI game without hurting the lower levels. As Benis said, why can't all levels be enjoyable? What good is an enjoyable DI, if everyone is so turned off by DII and DIII?

2. As far as all these DII and DIII powerhouses that previously existed. In Tark DII, we have not had a coach get a second championship in 17 seasons (bcnopolis season 117 and 100). That sounds like some pretty good parity to me. DIII 25 different coaches in the last 35 seasons. Now with DIII teams recruiting DI guys, good luck trying to compete new guys. Good luck learning how to win when you still can't figure out how these DIII teams have high level DII talent, possibly low level DI.

Posted by CoachSpud on 11/2/2016 4:35:00 PM (view original):
"I'm not really interested in catering the game to people who want to dominate D2/3." I get that. And neither are most of the guys who have played for quite a while. That's why thread after thread after thread are all about giving more and more advantages to D1 and seeing no problem in making D3 a wasteland. But WIS cannot have that kind of tunnel vision. D2/D2 will always have more humans than D1. "Yeah, I totally agree that if you're WIS, you want to retain new coaches and that should be a big priority." Limiting their rosters to garbage is not the answer.

Spud I actually agree with your first statement that WIS cannot have tunnel vision. Unfortunately, that's exactly what they did. The problem is your second statement is inaccurate. Guys keep talking about a DIII guy should be able to get elite talent. The problem is the guys who already know how to play are going to get that talent while the new guys get frustrated. You think there were powerhouses before, I'd be willing to bet the overall team talent is significantly increased at DIII making it that much harder for a new guy.

pkoopman hit it on the head. WIS will destroy DII and DIII so DI can look good. The problem is you have to enjoy DII and DIII in order to get to DI.

" I dont know how the specifics look, and frankly I'm glad it's not my job. But I'm pretty sure making D1 the best and most competitive game it can be, and then encouraging/incentivizing coaches to move toward it quickly, using D3 as a learning platform, and D2 as an intermediate or career-rebuilding step is the path they want to get on. "

I generally agree with your take on HD, but I think you are way off on this one. If D3 is no fun, and D2 is no fun, D1 will never see those coaches. You couldn't "incentivize" them to stay for all the tea in China. WIS will make all divisions fun or close up shop; those are their only practical choices.

Posted by shoe3 on 11/2/2016 5:39:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 11/2/2016 4:05:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 11/2/2016 3:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 11/2/2016 3:41:00 PM (view original):
"But mostly, I want D1 to be fun, that should be priority #1. I'm not really interested in catering the game to people who want to dominate D2/3."

I want ALL the levels to be fun. They should all be fun and all have various differences and based upon preferences people will like either of them or all of them.

I don't think 2.0 or 3.0 either have a system to dominate at D3. There is kinda, sorta parity currently where you can take over a SIM team that has a bunch of upperclassmen and take it to the NT. But I'm still in the camp that this will go away with 3.0 since all human coached teams will be improving (not just the top teams) and simmy will still be the same. There will be LESS parity among all of D3 in general as new coaches take over sims and then have to face not just powerhouse teams (similar to the CNU team linked) but basically all human teams with decent coaches will be like this. So instead of getting crushed by me by 50 points once or twice in division play, they get to be crushed 8-10 times. Yay for them.

I don't really disagree. If I'm WIS, I want players like you and me to move up to D1 anyway. It's why most coaches sign up, and it should be the centerpiece of the game. The novelty of having those long term communities of long term (and wildly successful) coaches in D2/3 was nice for those communities, but not necessarily nice for business, for some of the reasons you bring up. I'm not convinced that Joe Newbie is going to be facing more and more dominant teams in D3 version 3.0, but even if he is, I think D3 should be designed as a place to learn the game, then move on from. I mostly don't want him to care (if I'm WIS) about winning D3 championships nearly as much as what it takes to get him up the chain.

Yeah, I totally agree that if you're WIS, you want to retain new coaches and that should be a big priority. And making D3 a slaughterhouse isn't the way to do it. How do you encourage coaches to move up though? Or do you force them to move up?

I suspect a lot of players who park at D2/3 originally signed up intending to move to D1 as soon as they could. But the logjam at Big 6 coupled with poorly thought out hiring/firing requirements, coupled with the fact that D1 in 2.0 just wasn't much fun for most of them, recruiting battles at D2/3 were actually more interesting and fun; I think all that conspired to cause an undue number of coaches to get unduly attached to their precious little CNU and ACU. Not to mention the incentive system that was gamed by a ton of us to use D2/3 dominance to supply credit storehouses for D1 programs.

I dont know how the specifics look, and frankly I'm glad it's not my job. But I'm pretty sure making D1 the best and most competitive game it can be, and then encouraging/incentivizing coaches to move toward it quickly, using D3 as a learning platform, and D2 as an intermediate or career-rebuilding step is the path they want to get on.

"I dont know how the specifics look, and frankly I'm glad it's not my job. But I'm pretty sure making D1 the best and most competitive game it can be, and then encouraging/incentivizing coaches to move toward it quickly, using D3 as a learning platform, and D2 as an intermediate or career-rebuilding step is the path they want to get on" This is the way it should be and I disagree with CoachSpud.

Posted by CoachSpud on 11/3/2016 3:53:00 AM (view original):
" I dont know how the specifics look, and frankly I'm glad it's not my job. But I'm pretty sure making D1 the best and most competitive game it can be, and then encouraging/incentivizing coaches to move toward it quickly, using D3 as a learning platform, and D2 as an intermediate or career-rebuilding step is the path they want to get on. "

I generally agree with your take on HD, but I think you are way off on this one. If D3 is no fun, and D2 is no fun, D1 will never see those coaches. You couldn't "incentivize" them to stay for all the tea in China. WIS will make all divisions fun or close up shop; those are their only practical choices.

Spud hit the nail on the head...all levels should be fun. If you're struggling at the lower levels, and paying for the privilege, are you really going to stick around to pay to play at Maryland-Eastern Shore or Stetson?

Now, with that being said, I'm enjoying 3.0 at D3. I've had enough seasons of beta to be pretty sure I can recruit nothing but D2 and some lower-rated D1 guys while the newbies are learning the ropes. Successful Coaches at D3 are going to do the same. It's a different game now.