The French revolution does seem somewhat relevant these days

Posted by Guitarguy567 on 5/30/2020 12:08:00 PM (view original):
The officer should absolutely be charged with murder. I have not argued against that ever. But have you ever considered how very Orwellian the BLM organization is, especially in regards to their name? Reasonable people can disagree about their aims and tactics but their name alone makes such disagreement problematic to the righteous left (ie what you just did)

So say, "I agree that black lives matter but..."

Or, don't ******* disagree! Not everything that people on the left say is stupid and wrong!

If you want to have a discussion, let's do that. What did I say that you disagree with?

Posted by rsp777 on 5/30/2020 12:10:00 PM (view original):
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable.”- JFK March 13th 1962

“A riot is the language of the unheard.”- MLK September 27th 1966.

“I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.”
-MLK April 16th 1963

I’m just glad to see that white moderate quote being used properly for a change, instead of dumbass Bernie bros using it to say support Medicare for all.

Posted by rsp777 on 5/30/2020 9:36:00 AM (view original):
Apologist white boy doesn’t see the racism in ANOTHER black man MURDERED by a white cop. Do YOU walk out your door unafraid of the police allMOUTH? That’s called WHITE PRIVILEGE. Black people DO NOT have the “luxury” of not worrying if they’ll be MURDERED in ANY INTERACTION with ANY cop. That’s called “SYSTEMIC RACISM” and your opinion is again, ******* GARBAGE.

Everything about this is just wrong.

It clear is true that many black people go about their lives with a fear of the police. They shouldn't. Statistically that's just wrong. We don't know exactly how many not-obviously-justifiable killings of black people by police occur in the United States, but based on just how popular the news cycle for each reported case becomes I think it's a pretty good bet that just about every one becomes public knowledge. Which means there are what, 15 or 20 per year? Even if I'm underestimating by an order of magnitude, and there really are a bunch of police shootings of unarmed black men that CNN is just deciding to ignore (suuurrreeee), it's pretty clear that this is not a statistically significant cause of death in any population. You're far more likely to be killed by someone who isn't a cop - most likely yourself - than someone who is a cop. This is largely analogous to the kids who are demonstrating about how they shouldn't be scared to go to school. They're right. They shouldn't be scared to go to school. They're far more likely to be murdered at home by their own parents. And everyone - black, white, latino, everyone - is far more likely to be killed in their own home by a friend or family member than they are to be killed by a cop. Police killings feel like a big risk because they are publicized so widely when they happen. But they are really incredibly rare.

More importantly, BLM is inherently stupid and counterproductive. What's more, the evidence for this has been published in so many best selling pop psychology, sociology, and behavioral economics books in the past 10-15 years that the leaders of the movement have to know that it's counterproductive, which means it's nothing but, like so much else, a political power play. Human beings are hardwired for "us-them"ing. We make decisions based on ingroup/outgroup dynamics by default. One of the studies that the various authors love to cite is the one where study participants come into a room and roll a die. They are placed into 2 groups based on whether they rolled and even or an odd number. Then one participant is given a small reimbursement for participation and told to distribute the remaining reimbursement funds as he/she desires to the rest of the participants. The reimbursers pay their even/odd grouping more by an average of about 2:1. In this case, the distribution into groups is so arbitrary that nobody would rationally think that the people in their own group were in any way inherently superior, more accomplished, needier, or anything else. All you have to do is tell them they're in a group, and they will prefer that group. So it doesn't matter if people - cops, for example - know, on an intellectual level, that all humans are fundamentally equal. If they have protesters chanting at them about race on a regular basis, and they're thinking in terms of racial groups, they're going to prefer their own race when the have to make quick decisions without engaging the intellectual centers of the brain. If you want a white cop to have an itchy trigger finger when dealing with a black civilian, the easiest thing you can do is talk to him about race before it happens.

BLM had an opportunity to absorb the "All Lives Matter" slogan early in their movement. I understand that the people pushing that largely did not have pure intentions, and that the group pushing it had racist undertones. But it doesn't really matter - BLM could have adopted the slogan, made it their own, and been far more successful. The best way to improve relations between groups is to draw bigger circles. The most successful civil rights leaders in history have understood this and used inclusive and expansive rhetoric. It's why MLK and Mandela are remembered so fondly by history as Malcolm X and Elijah Mohammed move further and further into anonymity. At the end of MLK's life he was working with the Poor People's Movement, acknowledging that this was a more effective way to raise up the struggling majority of America's black population. Making it all about race doesn't work. If you are part of a group that has less power, emphasizing the differences has the subconscious effect of making the more-powerful group circle the wagons. You have to draw bigger circles. BLM is the opposite of that.

For young men of color in the United States, police use-of-force is among the leading causes of death, according to a study from the University of Michigan, Rutgers University and Washington University.

Police use-of-force—which includes asphyxiation, beating, a chemical agent, a medical emergency, a Taser, or a gunshot—trails accidental death, suicide, other homicides, heart disease and cancer as a leading cause of death for young black men, who have the highest risk of being killed by police.

About 100 in 100,000 black men and boys will be killed by police during their lives, while 39 white men and boys per 100,000 are killed by police. This means black men are about 2.5 times more likely to be killed by police than white men.

“It’s a striking number,” said study co-author Michael Esposito, a postdoctoral researcher in the Survey Research Center at the U-M Institute for Social Research. “There have been arguments about how widespread of a problem this is. We didn’t have a good estimate about whether it’s a few cases that received a lot of media attention.

“This study shows us that police killings are deeply systematic, with race, gender and age patterning this excess cause of death.”

An egghead white boy is telling darky to be not afraid!

lol!

save it for the debate team, Biff

Saying all lives matter doesn't contradict Black Lives Matter.

Posted by tangplay on 5/30/2020 2:28:00 PM (view original):
Saying all lives matter doesn't contradict Black Lives Matter.

That is not what people within BLM were saying at the time.

Should excess police violence against ALL people be ended? Idealy.

I would just ask, if blacks feel the need to walk around afraid of police, shouldn't they walk around many times more afraid of other blacks, since blacks kill many times more other blacks than police? Why not address the much bigger problem with at least as much outrage? Where are the multiple daily riots in many US cities when a black man kills another? If ALL lives, or even just ALL black lives are equally important, shouldn't the reaction to each death be the same? Why do deaths only seem to matter to some in certain situations?

Posted by dahsdebater on 5/30/2020 2:45:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 5/30/2020 2:28:00 PM (view original):
Saying all lives matter doesn't contradict Black Lives Matter.

That is not what people within BLM were saying at the time.

Can you please point me to where people within BLM said that not all lives matter? Thanks.

Posted by all3 on 5/30/2020 3:05:00 PM (view original):
Should excess police violence against ALL people be ended? Idealy.

I would just ask, if blacks feel the need to walk around afraid of police, shouldn't they walk around many times more afraid of other blacks, since blacks kill many times more other blacks than police? Why not address the much bigger problem with at least as much outrage? Where are the multiple daily riots in many US cities when a black man kills another? If ALL lives, or even just ALL black lives are equally important, shouldn't the reaction to each death be the same? Why do deaths only seem to matter to some in certain situations?

What would protesting black on black crime do? YES it's a problem that needs to be solved, but police are there to serve the people. If the police kill unjustly, it's cause for protest. They are violating their job description.

Literally every black activist would tell you that black on black crime is a problem. Please, give me your solution.

Watch what's going on with the protests in Columbus and Cleveland today. Notice how the protests are ALWAYS peaceful until the police start firing tear gas and mace into the crowd. Notice how the protests without a police presence are always peaceful. The police are instigating a fight with the protesters, something they never did to the MAGA people protesting being on lockdown. Then blaming the people they terrorized for the violence that ensues. You reap what you sow.

Who is going to defend this? The enemies here are not the protesters!

Posted by Uofa2 on 5/30/2020 1:17:00 PM (view original):

For young men of color in the United States, police use-of-force is among the leading causes of death, according to a study from the University of Michigan, Rutgers University and Washington University.

Police use-of-force—which includes asphyxiation, beating, a chemical agent, a medical emergency, a Taser, or a gunshot—trails accidental death, suicide, other homicides, heart disease and cancer as a leading cause of death for young black men, who have the highest risk of being killed by police.

About 100 in 100,000 black men and boys will be killed by police during their lives, while 39 white men and boys per 100,000 are killed by police. This means black men are about 2.5 times more likely to be killed by police than white men.

“It’s a striking number,” said study co-author Michael Esposito, a postdoctoral researcher in the Survey Research Center at the U-M Institute for Social Research. “There have been arguments about how widespread of a problem this is. We didn’t have a good estimate about whether it’s a few cases that received a lot of media attention.

“This study shows us that police killings are deeply systematic, with race, gender and age patterning this excess cause of death.”

It's worth keeping in mind that while the data in a well-done study should be trustworthy, the conclusions are still highly susceptible to bias.

So black men are 2.5 times more likely to be killed by police than white men...

According to FBI statistics black people are about 4 times as likely to commit a homicide (they provide public data by race and gender, but not both). 3 times as likely for general weapons charges.

I'm not sure I'm convinced that these data provide evidence of systematic racism. Context matters and this is totally out of context. If a group commits more crimes involving weapons, one would expect more armed conflicts with law enforcement, which in turn leads to more police killings.

Also worth pointing out that 100 deaths per 100000 is 0.1%. And internal studies published by various police jurisdictions generally show that 98-99% of all police killings are rapidly dismissed as fully validated (IE the victim posed an immediate threat to the officers and/or 3rd-party civilians). So the remaining 1-2% of questionable killings (the majority of which are also eventually dismissed) represent a .001-.002% cod based on the results of this study.

The huge caveat here is that internal review is generally based on decisions made during a very brief portion of an interaction - what I cited above, the victim presents a credible threat and the officers neutralize the threat. This is almost always written off as justified unless the officer went out of his way to escalate the situation, if not then. The problem is that very few police in this country are trained at all in de-escalation. There's really no way to quantitatively estimate how many of those shootings could be avoided if the officers had better training in never getting to the credible threat stage. Certainly some of the victims are so desperate that it really isn't avoidable. But I have to think a lot of them aren't. If, for starters, black men didn't feel they were in immediate physical danger from the police, it would be far less tempting for them to threaten physical danger themselves. Which comes back to my original point. Spreading what is, in essence, a near-complete myth - that unjustified killings of black men by police officers comprise a significant cause of death and police should therefore be considered morally threatening - in fact only enhances the possibility of interactions with police becoming violent. Which brings me back to my original statement - BLM is fundamentally stupid and self-defeating.

I will say that I have heard some leadership talking about police training in conflict resolution and mediation being a priority. It just doesn't seem to have filtered down to the average protester.

Posted by tangplay on 5/30/2020 5:29:00 PM (view original):
Watch what's going on with the protests in Columbus and Cleveland today. Notice how the protests are ALWAYS peaceful until the police start firing tear gas and mace into the crowd. Notice how the protests without a police presence are always peaceful. The police are instigating a fight with the protesters, something they never did to the MAGA people protesting being on lockdown. Then blaming the people they terrorized for the violence that ensues. You reap what you sow.

Who is going to defend this? The enemies here are not the protesters!

So you don't think that people gathering in massive, close-packed groups, largely without masks, are a public problem? Because you thought so last week. Also, it is totally false that no lockdown protesters were forcibly dispersed. That did happen.

With that being said, I generally agree with your point. In Minneapolis the protests were out of hand on their own. Maybe also in DC. In some other locations it is very clear that protesters retaliated violently, but did not initiate rioting or violence.

Posted by tangplay on 5/30/2020 3:28:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 5/30/2020 2:45:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 5/30/2020 2:28:00 PM (view original):
Saying all lives matter doesn't contradict Black Lives Matter.

That is not what people within BLM were saying at the time.

Can you please point me to where people within BLM said that not all lives matter? Thanks.

For example...

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2016/07/13/why-saying-all-lives-matter-opposite-black-lives-matter/87025190/