I AM LORD_CLUCK

Posted by tangplay on 6/4/2020 3:45:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gomiami1972 on 6/4/2020 3:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 6/4/2020 3:27:00 PM (view original):
I deleted the insult because I felt bad. I don't think you are a moron. But saying that antifa is a authoritarian group is really laughable.

Thank you. You still have some decency left. We disagree on the definition of authoritarianism.

Does Antifa have any political objectives? Of course they do. Then, they are not anarchists. Anarchists don't have political objectives. Anarchists are not on the left nor the right of the political spectrum because they are off the spectrum completely.

Antifa wants to impose their own political beliefs on others through direct action, including violent direct action. That is a type of authoritarianism.

Antifa has no political objectives. There is no Antifa candidate. Antifa has no will to garner change through voting.

Instead, Antifa advocates for change through direct action, which is textbook anarchism. Authoritarianism, by definition, has to come through a state. Anarchists and authoritarians might achieve similar outcomes, but an Anarchist will never ask the state to do it for them.

Sigh. Direct action can be more than anarchism. The crowd took direct action on the Bastille on July 14, 1789 just like Germany took direct action in invading Poland on September 1, 1939. Authoritarianism does not have to be done by a state entity. It can be done by the group that wants to replace the current regime with one of their own choosing. It is my belief that once power has been acheived, it will be maintained through a coercive infrastructure, thus an authoritarian regime.

Now, if you are arguing that Antifa would remove the power structure of the USA and replace it with nothing, then fine. That makes me laugh (to poke fun at the OP.) That may be in the ideological literature but, in reality, is not what is going to happen.

Guys, please remember that I'm not doug nor all3. I'm not made to debate three against one.

Posted by usf_bulls on 6/4/2020 4:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 6/4/2020 3:45:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gomiami1972 on 6/4/2020 3:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 6/4/2020 3:27:00 PM (view original):
I deleted the insult because I felt bad. I don't think you are a moron. But saying that antifa is a authoritarian group is really laughable.

Thank you. You still have some decency left. We disagree on the definition of authoritarianism.

Does Antifa have any political objectives? Of course they do. Then, they are not anarchists. Anarchists don't have political objectives. Anarchists are not on the left nor the right of the political spectrum because they are off the spectrum completely.

Antifa wants to impose their own political beliefs on others through direct action, including violent direct action. That is a type of authoritarianism.

Antifa has no political objectives. There is no Antifa candidate. Antifa has no will to garner change through voting.

Instead, Antifa advocates for change through direct action, which is textbook anarchism. Authoritarianism, by definition, has to come through a state. Anarchists and authoritarians might achieve similar outcomes, but an Anarchist will never ask the state to do it for them.

Sigh. Direct action can be more than anarchism. The crowd took direct action on the Bastille on July 14, 1789 just like Germany took direct action in invading Poland on September 1, 1939. Authoritarianism does not have to be done by a state entity. It can be done by the group that wants to replace the current regime with one of their own choosing. It is my belief that once power has been acheived, it will be maintained through a coercive infrastructure, thus an authoritarian regime.

Now, if you are arguing that Antifa would remove the power structure of the USA and replace it with nothing, then fine. That makes me laugh (to poke fun at the OP.) That may be in the ideological literature but, in reality, is not what is going to happen.

Yeah, Antifa has no interest in taking down regimes that aren't fascist. They don't want to replace regimes, they want to prevent fascism from ever coming to power in America (although it can be argued that they already failed.)

Authoritarianism, by definition, has to be done through state action. The crowd storming the Bastille is different from Germany invading Poland because one was done by the people, while the other was done by the state.

Antifa doesn't want to take power. Like I said, there is no Antifa candidate, nor is their an Antifa party. They are only interested in preventing the spread of fascism through direct action of the people, not the state.

In order to classify Antifa as an authoritarian group, you would need to outline what a country ruled by Antifa would be like. This is incomprehensible because Antifa would never take over a country. They also wouldn't "replace the power structure." You can't have a country defined by only one principle: being against fascism.

Is Antifa better or worse than the people Andy Ngo associates with and protects in his edited videos?

Posted by tangplay on 6/4/2020 4:24:00 PM (view original):

Posted by usf_bulls on 6/4/2020 4:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 6/4/2020 3:45:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gomiami1972 on 6/4/2020 3:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 6/4/2020 3:27:00 PM (view original):
I deleted the insult because I felt bad. I don't think you are a moron. But saying that antifa is a authoritarian group is really laughable.

Thank you. You still have some decency left. We disagree on the definition of authoritarianism.

Does Antifa have any political objectives? Of course they do. Then, they are not anarchists. Anarchists don't have political objectives. Anarchists are not on the left nor the right of the political spectrum because they are off the spectrum completely.

Antifa wants to impose their own political beliefs on others through direct action, including violent direct action. That is a type of authoritarianism.

Antifa has no political objectives. There is no Antifa candidate. Antifa has no will to garner change through voting.

Instead, Antifa advocates for change through direct action, which is textbook anarchism. Authoritarianism, by definition, has to come through a state. Anarchists and authoritarians might achieve similar outcomes, but an Anarchist will never ask the state to do it for them.

Sigh. Direct action can be more than anarchism. The crowd took direct action on the Bastille on July 14, 1789 just like Germany took direct action in invading Poland on September 1, 1939. Authoritarianism does not have to be done by a state entity. It can be done by the group that wants to replace the current regime with one of their own choosing. It is my belief that once power has been acheived, it will be maintained through a coercive infrastructure, thus an authoritarian regime.

Now, if you are arguing that Antifa would remove the power structure of the USA and replace it with nothing, then fine. That makes me laugh (to poke fun at the OP.) That may be in the ideological literature but, in reality, is not what is going to happen.

Yeah, Antifa has no interest in taking down regimes that aren't fascist. They don't want to replace regimes, they want to prevent fascism from ever coming to power in America (although it can be argued that they already failed.)

Authoritarianism, by definition, has to be done through state action. The crowd storming the Bastille is different from Germany invading Poland because one was done by the people, while the other was done by the state.

Antifa doesn't want to take power. Like I said, there is no Antifa candidate, nor is their an Antifa party. They are only interested in preventing the spread of fascism through direct action of the people, not the state.

In order to classify Antifa as an authoritarian group, you would need to outline what a country ruled by Antifa would be like. This is incomprehensible because Antifa would never take over a country. They also wouldn't "replace the power structure." You can't have a country defined by only one principle: being against fascism.

No. Authoritarianism is a concept...submission to authority. It is not just a form of government. Antifa, with its controlling principle of never allowing X (however they define X, if they actually define it in detail at all,) becomes the governing authority by enforcing the prevention of X. By declaring your objective that X will never happen, you become the new authority that must be submitted to.

Read Karl Marx. He outlines what a country would be like ruled/governed/controlled/owned/overseen (whatever word you like here) by the omnipresent authoritarian ideologists that constitute Antifa.

I'm an abstract thinker so maybe I won't be able to get my point across here. I tried.

Posted by Uofa2 on 6/4/2020 4:25:00 PM (view original):
Is Antifa better or worse than the people Andy Ngo associates with and protects in his edited videos?

I've never heard of the guy. I rarely use the Internet for anything other than WIS and reading the Parisian daily newspapers.

I guess we just disagree on what authoritarianism means. I've been talking about it in terms of the political concept, whereas you have been talking about it in the abstract concept. If you strictly mean some sort of submission to authority, then I'll probably concede that. If that's the case, though, a lot of other things are authoritarian that Americans probably wouldn't be comfortable with.

To the overall point, though, I think you are more studied on the abstract concept of authoritarianism than most Americans. When people say "Antifa is a fascist organization" or "Antifa advocates for authoritarianism", I don't think they mean it in the same way you do.

Posted by tangplay on 6/4/2020 5:07:00 PM (view original):
I guess we just disagree on what authoritarianism means. I've been talking about it in terms of the political concept, whereas you have been talking about it in the abstract concept. If you strictly mean some sort of submission to authority, then I'll probably concede that. If that's the case, though, a lot of other things are authoritarian that Americans probably wouldn't be comfortable with.

To the overall point, though, I think you are more studied on the abstract concept of authoritarianism than most Americans. When people say "Antifa is a fascist organization" or "Antifa advocates for authoritarianism", I don't think they mean it in the same way you do.

Both of your paragraphs are good enough for me. Most people probably call a group "fascist" or "authoritarian" to evoke an emotional response. I'm a semanticist, where words can have a true meaning without the negative connotations history provides as embroidery.

If every word can be turned into a dirty word, we're going to run out of debatable concepts in a few decades and will forced to use Newspeak.

For the record, I’m more on USF and Miami’s side in this conversation.

Im just utterly stunned by using Ngo as some form of evidence on this.

I think Antifa is important because the existence of fascist/neonazi groups in America is an existential threat to my existence as a Jewish person. When you have groups in Charlottesville organizing and shouting "Jews will not replace us", yeah, it's important to have others there to, let's say, "balance the scales." They advocate for violence on me, so I think Antifa is completely justified in waging preemptive violence on them. Even though Trump's classification of Antifa won't do anything, it's still disgusting that some see them and the fascists they oppose as equals.

Posted by Uofa2 on 6/4/2020 5:25:00 PM (view original):
For the record, I’m more on USF and Miami’s side in this conversation.

Im just utterly stunned by using Ngo as some form of evidence on this.

USF and Miami are often on the same side.

Posted by Uofa2 on 6/4/2020 3:41:00 PM (view original):
Who is the leader of antifa?

That's not for you to know.....yet.

Posted by tangplay on 6/4/2020 5:55:00 PM (view original):
I think Antifa is important because the existence of fascist/neonazi groups in America is an existential threat to my existence as a Jewish person. When you have groups in Charlottesville organizing and shouting "Jews will not replace us", yeah, it's important to have others there to, let's say, "balance the scales." They advocate for violence on me, so I think Antifa is completely justified in waging preemptive violence on them. Even though Trump's classification of Antifa won't do anything, it's still disgusting that some see them and the fascists they oppose as equals.

Touchdown Denver.