Posted by crabman26 on 10/20/2022 2:04:00 PM (view original):
Unfortunately I know of a few long time owners that are significantly pairing back, not because of the sim issue though, because of other HD issues and I may be doing the same.

I will say, I have always felt sims get some kind of weird home court boost and its why I never schedule against them. There seems to always be some kind of unexplainable upset by a sim team over a human team.

I’m one of those. I should be down to 4 already, but KU became available again, and then I simply failed at actually dropping Fresno and Wake Forest like I intended to do, apparently because unchecking the auto-renew isn’t enough, you also have to undo a renewal if you’ve previously manually renewed (which I probably did but don’t remember doing in either case but whatever). Anyway long story short, hilariously my ADHD is the reason I need to cut back and is also the reason I have not yet cut back.

(**I’m saying this next part theoretically and I’m not pretending to know exactly how the system works. But I’m confident there is some kind of luck modifier attached to each game, probably related to something like momentum or “juice” factor too, apart from home court, IQ, etc.**)

I don’t have a problem with good sims existing and sometimes beating mediocre human coached teams. The problem is when the upsets don’t make sense. Do some exceptional upsets happen in real life? Sure - and they happen because of exceptional coaching, tactical gameplanning, and good (but not absurd) performances from key players. They don’t happen because a battle roll system put an elite team at a -12 and a bad team at a +15 on the same night. Upsets shouldn’t be the result of battle rolls. That’s why these kind of losses do nothing but generate dissatisfaction.

So whatever happens with the re-writes that are being teased here - and I hope there’s more to come on these in the coming months - more transparency on this process is vital.

Posted by shoe3 on 10/20/2022 3:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by crabman26 on 10/20/2022 2:04:00 PM (view original):
Unfortunately I know of a few long time owners that are significantly pairing back, not because of the sim issue though, because of other HD issues and I may be doing the same.

I will say, I have always felt sims get some kind of weird home court boost and its why I never schedule against them. There seems to always be some kind of unexplainable upset by a sim team over a human team.

I’m one of those. I should be down to 4 already, but KU became available again, and then I simply failed at actually dropping Fresno and Wake Forest like I intended to do, apparently because unchecking the auto-renew isn’t enough, you also have to undo a renewal if you’ve previously manually renewed (which I probably did but don’t remember doing in either case but whatever). Anyway long story short, hilariously my ADHD is the reason I need to cut back and is also the reason I have not yet cut back.

(**I’m saying this next part theoretically and I’m not pretending to know exactly how the system works. But I’m confident there is some kind of luck modifier attached to each game, probably related to something like momentum or “juice” factor too, apart from home court, IQ, etc.**)

I don’t have a problem with good sims existing and sometimes beating mediocre human coached teams. The problem is when the upsets don’t make sense. Do some exceptional upsets happen in real life? Sure - and they happen because of exceptional coaching, tactical gameplanning, and good (but not absurd) performances from key players. They don’t happen because a battle roll system put an elite team at a -12 and a bad team at a +15 on the same night. Upsets shouldn’t be the result of battle rolls. That’s why these kind of losses do nothing but generate dissatisfaction.

So whatever happens with the re-writes that are being teased here - and I hope there’s more to come on these in the coming months - more transparency on this process is vital.

Good to know about the manual renew as I think I have done that in some worlds I plan on dropping...will have to make sure it doesnt renew.

I agree completely with your last paragraph. I have seen sim 39 perimeter guards with low ATH/ high SPD somehow go off from 3-point land against far superior athletic defenders...its things like that that just drive me insane and its hard not to think sometimes they stack the deck in some way. I can handle getting beat by a decent sim school but as I mentioned, I have seen a bit too many head scratchers.

I think moreso than sim upsets in games, sims battling so hard for recruits if you do not knock them to Very Low is my bigger gripe. If you lose a recruiting battle and have loosely been working on a backup option that has a sim school on that recruit, its sometimes hard to have any resources left to knock them out of contention for that recruit, its easier for higher prestige schools but if you are lower in a rebuild its harder. That is where the paying customer should have some kind of larger edge over a sim school in my opinion.

I think I remember reading along time ago that HBD had some hot/ cold streaks built into the engine (could have been the old engine, cant remember) and Ive always thought if they do it with HBD they would do it with HD as well...but again, no real proof of that I guess.

I lose to sims every once in a while, which is definitely frustrating, but I am in agreement that I don't think this is a problem that needs to be addressed. I feel like it's about right the way it is.

Posted by chapelhillne on 10/21/2022 8:44:00 AM (view original):
I lose to sims every once in a while, which is definitely frustrating, but I am in agreement that I don't think this is a problem that needs to be addressed. I feel like it's about right the way it is.

This.

I've been here a long time and also lose to sims once in awhile. Losing to sims doesn't bother me at all, and if I do lose there's usually a good reason that it happened. Like a sim with all upper classmen, a sim that has many human recruited players, a lazy gameplan, or my team is just mediocre.

Posted by chapelhillne on 10/21/2022 8:44:00 AM (view original):
I lose to sims every once in a while, which is definitely frustrating, but I am in agreement that I don't think this is a problem that needs to be addressed. I feel like it's about right the way it is.

I suspect you probably have not suffered these kinds of "frustrating" losses in the NT very often. Or if you have, your perspective is guarded by your pile of credits. The bottom line is that sims (or any mediocre teams for that matter) that get randomly supercharged into god mode for a game or 3 at a time enhance the game for no one, and create immense dissatisfaction for some. If the goal is to create challenge and obstacles and "problems" for advanced users to deal with, there are vastly better ways to do it - namely, ways that involve rational user-driven decisions, not the system imposing itself.

So yeah, it is a problem that deserves attention, especially given a re-write. Leaving the absurd "good luck day" modifiers in place for this game engine that are, I suspect, both game and program (and potentially user too) specific is a huge mistake.

Posted by shoe3 on 10/21/2022 2:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by chapelhillne on 10/21/2022 8:44:00 AM (view original):
I lose to sims every once in a while, which is definitely frustrating, but I am in agreement that I don't think this is a problem that needs to be addressed. I feel like it's about right the way it is.

I suspect you probably have not suffered these kinds of "frustrating" losses in the NT very often. Or if you have, your perspective is guarded by your pile of credits. The bottom line is that sims (or any mediocre teams for that matter) that get randomly supercharged into god mode for a game or 3 at a time enhance the game for no one, and create immense dissatisfaction for some. If the goal is to create challenge and obstacles and "problems" for advanced users to deal with, there are vastly better ways to do it - namely, ways that involve rational user-driven decisions, not the system imposing itself.

So yeah, it is a problem that deserves attention, especially given a re-write. Leaving the absurd "good luck day" modifiers in place for this game engine that are, I suspect, both game and program (and potentially user too) specific is a huge mistake.

Nah! Things are fine the way they are.
If I had to gripe about anything it would be FT% outliers.
But getting beat by sims seems fairly thin-shinned to feel so strongly about.
The game should be challenging.

Your losses are of your own making. Either your team isn't good enough to win, or you're not doing enough to maximize your team's chances of winning. Own your losses and try to figure out how you can do better.

Posted by uglyskunk3 on 10/21/2022 8:56:00 PM (view original):
Your losses are of your own making. Either your team isn't good enough to win, or you're not doing enough to maximize your team's chances of winning. Own your losses and try to figure out how you can do better.

Up until a little over 2 years ago I was pretty much in this camp. Then I found myself with teams that had bad luck stuck to them - all 4 I was coaching at the time - for over a year, until I sent a ticket about it. Not just "bad luck sims" though they happened, but also stuff like the best player of an undefeated team going out in the 1st minute of a final four; a FB/P team getting hit with 3 guys on the watch list for grades even though I'm very conservative with minutes, including a guy with a HS GPA of 3.0 who had been getting 8 minutes all season; multiple EEs that would have been off the board before the expansion to 150; and of course recruiting battles, though truth be told, Kentucky was the only place I was getting noticeably hit with bad recruiting luck, and I complain about recruiting luck less than 99% of folks here so...

Anyway, this is all well and good, but frankly it's one of those "if you know, you know" kind of things. That's part of the problem with the luck modifier being as strong as I'm pretty confident it is, especially when there is zero transparency.

Posted by shoe3 on 10/21/2022 11:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by uglyskunk3 on 10/21/2022 8:56:00 PM (view original):
Your losses are of your own making. Either your team isn't good enough to win, or you're not doing enough to maximize your team's chances of winning. Own your losses and try to figure out how you can do better.

Up until a little over 2 years ago I was pretty much in this camp. Then I found myself with teams that had bad luck stuck to them - all 4 I was coaching at the time - for over a year, until I sent a ticket about it. Not just "bad luck sims" though they happened, but also stuff like the best player of an undefeated team going out in the 1st minute of a final four; a FB/P team getting hit with 3 guys on the watch list for grades even though I'm very conservative with minutes, including a guy with a HS GPA of 3.0 who had been getting 8 minutes all season; multiple EEs that would have been off the board before the expansion to 150; and of course recruiting battles, though truth be told, Kentucky was the only place I was getting noticeably hit with bad recruiting luck, and I complain about recruiting luck less than 99% of folks here so...

Anyway, this is all well and good, but frankly it's one of those "if you know, you know" kind of things. That's part of the problem with the luck modifier being as strong as I'm pretty confident it is, especially when there is zero transparency.

You've won 11 nattys and you're complaining the game isn't easy enough.

Posted by shoe3 on 10/21/2022 11:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by uglyskunk3 on 10/21/2022 8:56:00 PM (view original):
Your losses are of your own making. Either your team isn't good enough to win, or you're not doing enough to maximize your team's chances of winning. Own your losses and try to figure out how you can do better.

Up until a little over 2 years ago I was pretty much in this camp. Then I found myself with teams that had bad luck stuck to them - all 4 I was coaching at the time - for over a year, until I sent a ticket about it. Not just "bad luck sims" though they happened, but also stuff like the best player of an undefeated team going out in the 1st minute of a final four; a FB/P team getting hit with 3 guys on the watch list for grades even though I'm very conservative with minutes, including a guy with a HS GPA of 3.0 who had been getting 8 minutes all season; multiple EEs that would have been off the board before the expansion to 150; and of course recruiting battles, though truth be told, Kentucky was the only place I was getting noticeably hit with bad recruiting luck, and I complain about recruiting luck less than 99% of folks here so...

Anyway, this is all well and good, but frankly it's one of those "if you know, you know" kind of things. That's part of the problem with the luck modifier being as strong as I'm pretty confident it is, especially when there is zero transparency.

I'm sure you yourself Shoe would admit that you had a lot more success when you were open to your losses and really looked into what was going wrong as opposed to just chalking up bad things in this game to being *stuck with bad luck*. Also to say its one of those "if you know you know" things while guys like Chap and Dan (among others) have been racking up title after title just seems like a bit of frustration. You've contributed greatly to the community yourself and your previous posts have taught me a bit so I'm a little confused to see you think this way.

Posted by tmacfan14 on 10/22/2022 4:44:00 AM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 10/21/2022 11:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by uglyskunk3 on 10/21/2022 8:56:00 PM (view original):
Your losses are of your own making. Either your team isn't good enough to win, or you're not doing enough to maximize your team's chances of winning. Own your losses and try to figure out how you can do better.

Up until a little over 2 years ago I was pretty much in this camp. Then I found myself with teams that had bad luck stuck to them - all 4 I was coaching at the time - for over a year, until I sent a ticket about it. Not just "bad luck sims" though they happened, but also stuff like the best player of an undefeated team going out in the 1st minute of a final four; a FB/P team getting hit with 3 guys on the watch list for grades even though I'm very conservative with minutes, including a guy with a HS GPA of 3.0 who had been getting 8 minutes all season; multiple EEs that would have been off the board before the expansion to 150; and of course recruiting battles, though truth be told, Kentucky was the only place I was getting noticeably hit with bad recruiting luck, and I complain about recruiting luck less than 99% of folks here so...

Anyway, this is all well and good, but frankly it's one of those "if you know, you know" kind of things. That's part of the problem with the luck modifier being as strong as I'm pretty confident it is, especially when there is zero transparency.

I'm sure you yourself Shoe would admit that you had a lot more success when you were open to your losses and really looked into what was going wrong as opposed to just chalking up bad things in this game to being *stuck with bad luck*. Also to say its one of those "if you know you know" things while guys like Chap and Dan (among others) have been racking up title after title just seems like a bit of frustration. You've contributed greatly to the community yourself and your previous posts have taught me a bit so I'm a little confused to see you think this way.

It's funny that you say that. Because actually, I went through a year+ drought of not even advancing past the sweet 16 (maybe once) across all my teams that only changed once I sent a ticket about it - that's when a few of the programs started operating as normal again. I know how to look at a box score and tell the difference between a bad game plan and a "bad luck day" (the latter is terminology I've gotten from a CS ticket).

I don't mind losing. That's why I move around and take on rebuilds, and that means losing a bit. Like my D3 program? I'm 2 seasons into a 4-5 season rebuild. Losses to those sims all make sense, my team's not good. Wake Forest was a throwaway that I intended to drop anyway, but that is also a rebuild. You're right that you can learn a lot from those types of losses - especially when you can trust that they are gameplans you can rely on. What I dislike are losses that don't make sense, in large part *because I can't learn anything from them* other than the other guy just had a "good luck day" (again, this is verbatim from a CS ticket response I got about this very issue.)

Like I said, until it started happening, my standpoint was very similar to yours (though I've always been sympathetic to users being frustrated by the bad game engine).

My point here in all of this is that when the system re-write happens, they need to be transparent about the existence of random luck modifiers (wherever they are, recruiting, injuries, grades, and most importantly in the games); specifically how much impact and whether they're influenced by gameplay factors (for example, if they're trying to mimic a concept of momentum, or chemistry, etc, and whether some high baseline programs come with negative luck default as a "counterbalance" - I'm not the only one who has noticed how much it sucks to coach at Kentucky, and it's not just recruit gen). *I am not looking for the powers that be to admit or deny things about the current engine that would be bad for the game. I'm just asking that whatever is put into the next version is clearly stated and well-understood, by users and by future developers.

Posted by Napoli on 10/22/2022 1:21:00 AM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 10/21/2022 11:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by uglyskunk3 on 10/21/2022 8:56:00 PM (view original):
Your losses are of your own making. Either your team isn't good enough to win, or you're not doing enough to maximize your team's chances of winning. Own your losses and try to figure out how you can do better.

Up until a little over 2 years ago I was pretty much in this camp. Then I found myself with teams that had bad luck stuck to them - all 4 I was coaching at the time - for over a year, until I sent a ticket about it. Not just "bad luck sims" though they happened, but also stuff like the best player of an undefeated team going out in the 1st minute of a final four; a FB/P team getting hit with 3 guys on the watch list for grades even though I'm very conservative with minutes, including a guy with a HS GPA of 3.0 who had been getting 8 minutes all season; multiple EEs that would have been off the board before the expansion to 150; and of course recruiting battles, though truth be told, Kentucky was the only place I was getting noticeably hit with bad recruiting luck, and I complain about recruiting luck less than 99% of folks here so...

Anyway, this is all well and good, but frankly it's one of those "if you know, you know" kind of things. That's part of the problem with the luck modifier being as strong as I'm pretty confident it is, especially when there is zero transparency.

You've won 11 nattys and you're complaining the game isn't easy enough.

No, if I wanted an easy game, I'd schedule all sims and play in empty conferences, and stay in D3. I don't do any of those things. And like I said, if the point was to ensure challenge and obstacles for advanced users, there are much better ways than randomly supercharging some teams, some nights. This is a multiplayer game, the difficulty level should depend on the folks you are playing against.

Posted by shoe3 on 10/22/2022 9:42:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tmacfan14 on 10/22/2022 4:44:00 AM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 10/21/2022 11:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by uglyskunk3 on 10/21/2022 8:56:00 PM (view original):
Your losses are of your own making. Either your team isn't good enough to win, or you're not doing enough to maximize your team's chances of winning. Own your losses and try to figure out how you can do better.

Up until a little over 2 years ago I was pretty much in this camp. Then I found myself with teams that had bad luck stuck to them - all 4 I was coaching at the time - for over a year, until I sent a ticket about it. Not just "bad luck sims" though they happened, but also stuff like the best player of an undefeated team going out in the 1st minute of a final four; a FB/P team getting hit with 3 guys on the watch list for grades even though I'm very conservative with minutes, including a guy with a HS GPA of 3.0 who had been getting 8 minutes all season; multiple EEs that would have been off the board before the expansion to 150; and of course recruiting battles, though truth be told, Kentucky was the only place I was getting noticeably hit with bad recruiting luck, and I complain about recruiting luck less than 99% of folks here so...

Anyway, this is all well and good, but frankly it's one of those "if you know, you know" kind of things. That's part of the problem with the luck modifier being as strong as I'm pretty confident it is, especially when there is zero transparency.

I'm sure you yourself Shoe would admit that you had a lot more success when you were open to your losses and really looked into what was going wrong as opposed to just chalking up bad things in this game to being *stuck with bad luck*. Also to say its one of those "if you know you know" things while guys like Chap and Dan (among others) have been racking up title after title just seems like a bit of frustration. You've contributed greatly to the community yourself and your previous posts have taught me a bit so I'm a little confused to see you think this way.

It's funny that you say that. Because actually, I went through a year+ drought of not even advancing past the sweet 16 (maybe once) across all my teams that only changed once I sent a ticket about it - that's when a few of the programs started operating as normal again. I know how to look at a box score and tell the difference between a bad game plan and a "bad luck day" (the latter is terminology I've gotten from a CS ticket).

I don't mind losing. That's why I move around and take on rebuilds, and that means losing a bit. Like my D3 program? I'm 2 seasons into a 4-5 season rebuild. Losses to those sims all make sense, my team's not good. Wake Forest was a throwaway that I intended to drop anyway, but that is also a rebuild. You're right that you can learn a lot from those types of losses - especially when you can trust that they are gameplans you can rely on. What I dislike are losses that don't make sense, in large part *because I can't learn anything from them* other than the other guy just had a "good luck day" (again, this is verbatim from a CS ticket response I got about this very issue.)

Like I said, until it started happening, my standpoint was very similar to yours (though I've always been sympathetic to users being frustrated by the bad game engine).

My point here in all of this is that when the system re-write happens, they need to be transparent about the existence of random luck modifiers (wherever they are, recruiting, injuries, grades, and most importantly in the games); specifically how much impact and whether they're influenced by gameplay factors (for example, if they're trying to mimic a concept of momentum, or chemistry, etc, and whether some high baseline programs come with negative luck default as a "counterbalance" - I'm not the only one who has noticed how much it sucks to coach at Kentucky, and it's not just recruit gen). *I am not looking for the powers that be to admit or deny things about the current engine that would be bad for the game. I'm just asking that whatever is put into the next version is clearly stated and well-understood, by users and by future developers.

Of course bad luck days happen, this is a sim game. But to think that you are that important to warrant needing to send in a ticket for CS support to allow your teams to operate at their *normal* success level again is a bit much for me to think personally. The simplest answer is you've stopped looking for real solutions to your losses in this game and have instead started making excuses, I'm sorry to be harsh here but the negative attitude of a lot of the vets here can be way too much at times. This game needs to attract new coaches and to pretend like there is some sort of voodoo curse against you is just a bad look to anyone who has respected your opinion in the past and you are quite active here so your word does carry weight.

“This game needs to attract new coaches and to pretend like there is some sort of voodoo curse against you is just a bad look…”

Leaving the rest aside, the point here, which is being lost, is simply that the luck modifiers, to the extent they exist, should be clear and transparent, and well understood by everyone. Dismissing folks who get frustrated - like OP - by ridiculous losses that *are not actually attributable to coaching decisions* is the bad look here. They have a chance to vastly improve the game and improve user experience with the re-write. I don’t want them to miss it because some folks haven’t experienced its effects in the same way (yet).