I think redlining is for wimps.

Posted by cccp1014 on 5/31/2018 8:18:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 5/30/2018 10:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 5/30/2018 2:22:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 5/30/2018 2:16:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 5/30/2018 2:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 5/30/2018 2:05:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 5/30/2018 1:53:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 5/30/2018 12:55:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 5/30/2018 8:34:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 5/29/2018 9:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by all3 on 5/29/2018 9:29:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 5/29/2018 6:58:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 5/29/2018 5:21:00 PM (view original):

Posted by all3 on 5/29/2018 3:29:00 PM (view original):
Why are we just discussing racism against blacks? What about the racism of blacks? No idea where to look for the numbers, but I'd bet the % of blacks who are racist is much higher than the % of whites. I'd also bet the % of racist whites has decreased much more over the last couple decades than the % of racist blacks. It's kind of hard for any race to say "Yeah, I'm cool with them.", when you have some of them screaming "I hate your black/white guts." in your face. Shouldn't addressing the racism of blacks be part of the discussion on how to make the problem better (it will never be eliminated)?

I don't see how this is relevant to the discussion. Unless you can name an institutionally racist practice against white people this is a big fat nothingburger.

also, if you and your ancestors had been discriminated against for 250 years, wouldn't you be a little antagonistic against the people doing the discriminating?

Is it understandable? Yes.
Does that make it right or less detrimental? No.
You don't think white racism would decrease if nothing changed except black racism?

Not addressing the broken record named tang. institutional racism this, institutional racism that. He uses that "rationale" (excuse) so much he needs a key on his keyboard to type it all at once to avoid carpal tunnel.

Institutional racism isn't an excuse. No need for hyperbole here.

Tangplay here is where we differ.

Your definition of institutional racism:

100% due to the judicial system. You also believe because we were racists in the 40s it still impacts blacks now.

Mine is:

If KFC openly states we won't hire blacks. No institution does that.

Since you are dumb. I will give you this analogy. Say as a child I had a bad experience on a roller coaster and threw up after. I now won't allow my kids on roller coasters even though the one I threw up on has been long gone and my kids may have better constitution than me. To you that roller coaster is still causing my kids trauma because of what happened to me they are paying the price. To me its just me being an overprotective parent.

BTW - I love roller coasters and never threw up on one.

My point is the past is in the past and while it may influence future events it is not to be held against the current generation. Otherwise we should still be punishing Germany for the Nazis.

So our operational definition of institutional racism differs hence our debate goes nowhere and we end up going in circles.

Do you understand this? Y or N?

I agree with this statement. And I understand that you and I have differing definitions. That's why I wanted to clarify this long ago. So let me make my positions clear.

Here is an example, since I can't come up with an analogy.

Black person accused of a crime and convicted, despite being innocent, because the judge and police assumed (based on stereotypes) that black people commit most crimes and are troublemakers. While those people may not have been racist, we all have bias and we all stereotype. This happens a lot, and at a far greater rate than with white people. That is institutional racism.

Another example:
Black family tries to move into a good part of town in the 70's. They are denied because of redlining. That family moves into a bad part of town with tons of drugs (that may or may not have been promoted by the feds), bad schools, and lesser opportunities. That family is now at a disadvantage vs a family that was let into a better part of town. It is now MORE LIKELY that people in that family do drugs, don't graduate HS, have bad influences, etc. While these are all choices, it is still a disadvantage. That is institutional racism.

It is a little more cut and dry than a company just outright not hiring black people. More bias nowadays than outright racism. The roller coaster isn't a great analogy because the things being compared are not really equal.

It isn't 'punishing' anyone. What do you think happens if we as a society admit that institutional racism exists? We don't 'punish' white people. I don't have white guilt. We fix the problems by equalizing opportunity. We already agreed on 8/9 proposals I gave. If Jews still hadn't recovered from the Holocaust, we don't punish the Nazis further, we help the Jews. Seems simple enough.

Do you understand this? Y or N?

If you don't, just ask me questions instead of making accusations over things I didn't say.

I understand where you are coming from and 100% disagree with you.

If you want to believe that getting sent to jail doesn't put you at a disadvantage then go ahead.

Its based on wealth not color. See Leonard Little.

INNOCENT BLACK PEOPLE ARE CONVICTED FAR MORE THAN INNOCENT WHITE PEOPLE.

INNOCENT POOR PEOPLE you mean?

Also logically it makes sense. If the real criminal is black, anybody who is mistakenly convicted for that crime will almost inevitably be black as well. We also agree that the justice system is flawed for all people who don't have $$ for a good attorney. That needs to be fixed.

Our justice system is geared toward the rich and that is annoying.

What? Prove to me that the split is rich vs poor not black vs white. Both are factors and poor is a larger one but a race gap is certainly there.

That's wrong. And besides, that's not how investigations work anyway.

I told you --- see Leonard Little as an example. I don't have to prove anything to you.

Right, but this isn't a one or the other situation. I agree there is a wealth gap, but there is also a race gap.

Posted by cccp1014 on 5/31/2018 8:18:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 5/30/2018 10:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 5/30/2018 2:22:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 5/30/2018 2:16:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 5/30/2018 2:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 5/30/2018 2:05:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 5/30/2018 1:53:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 5/30/2018 12:55:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 5/30/2018 8:34:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 5/29/2018 9:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by all3 on 5/29/2018 9:29:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 5/29/2018 6:58:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 5/29/2018 5:21:00 PM (view original):

Posted by all3 on 5/29/2018 3:29:00 PM (view original):
Why are we just discussing racism against blacks? What about the racism of blacks? No idea where to look for the numbers, but I'd bet the % of blacks who are racist is much higher than the % of whites. I'd also bet the % of racist whites has decreased much more over the last couple decades than the % of racist blacks. It's kind of hard for any race to say "Yeah, I'm cool with them.", when you have some of them screaming "I hate your black/white guts." in your face. Shouldn't addressing the racism of blacks be part of the discussion on how to make the problem better (it will never be eliminated)?

I don't see how this is relevant to the discussion. Unless you can name an institutionally racist practice against white people this is a big fat nothingburger.

also, if you and your ancestors had been discriminated against for 250 years, wouldn't you be a little antagonistic against the people doing the discriminating?

Is it understandable? Yes.
Does that make it right or less detrimental? No.
You don't think white racism would decrease if nothing changed except black racism?

Not addressing the broken record named tang. institutional racism this, institutional racism that. He uses that "rationale" (excuse) so much he needs a key on his keyboard to type it all at once to avoid carpal tunnel.

Institutional racism isn't an excuse. No need for hyperbole here.

Tangplay here is where we differ.

Your definition of institutional racism:

100% due to the judicial system. You also believe because we were racists in the 40s it still impacts blacks now.

Mine is:

If KFC openly states we won't hire blacks. No institution does that.

Since you are dumb. I will give you this analogy. Say as a child I had a bad experience on a roller coaster and threw up after. I now won't allow my kids on roller coasters even though the one I threw up on has been long gone and my kids may have better constitution than me. To you that roller coaster is still causing my kids trauma because of what happened to me they are paying the price. To me its just me being an overprotective parent.

BTW - I love roller coasters and never threw up on one.

My point is the past is in the past and while it may influence future events it is not to be held against the current generation. Otherwise we should still be punishing Germany for the Nazis.

So our operational definition of institutional racism differs hence our debate goes nowhere and we end up going in circles.

Do you understand this? Y or N?

I agree with this statement. And I understand that you and I have differing definitions. That's why I wanted to clarify this long ago. So let me make my positions clear.

Here is an example, since I can't come up with an analogy.

Black person accused of a crime and convicted, despite being innocent, because the judge and police assumed (based on stereotypes) that black people commit most crimes and are troublemakers. While those people may not have been racist, we all have bias and we all stereotype. This happens a lot, and at a far greater rate than with white people. That is institutional racism.

Another example:
Black family tries to move into a good part of town in the 70's. They are denied because of redlining. That family moves into a bad part of town with tons of drugs (that may or may not have been promoted by the feds), bad schools, and lesser opportunities. That family is now at a disadvantage vs a family that was let into a better part of town. It is now MORE LIKELY that people in that family do drugs, don't graduate HS, have bad influences, etc. While these are all choices, it is still a disadvantage. That is institutional racism.

It is a little more cut and dry than a company just outright not hiring black people. More bias nowadays than outright racism. The roller coaster isn't a great analogy because the things being compared are not really equal.

It isn't 'punishing' anyone. What do you think happens if we as a society admit that institutional racism exists? We don't 'punish' white people. I don't have white guilt. We fix the problems by equalizing opportunity. We already agreed on 8/9 proposals I gave. If Jews still hadn't recovered from the Holocaust, we don't punish the Nazis further, we help the Jews. Seems simple enough.

Do you understand this? Y or N?

If you don't, just ask me questions instead of making accusations over things I didn't say.

I understand where you are coming from and 100% disagree with you.

If you want to believe that getting sent to jail doesn't put you at a disadvantage then go ahead.

Its based on wealth not color. See Leonard Little.

INNOCENT BLACK PEOPLE ARE CONVICTED FAR MORE THAN INNOCENT WHITE PEOPLE.

INNOCENT POOR PEOPLE you mean?

Also logically it makes sense. If the real criminal is black, anybody who is mistakenly convicted for that crime will almost inevitably be black as well. We also agree that the justice system is flawed for all people who don't have $$ for a good attorney. That needs to be fixed.

Our justice system is geared toward the rich and that is annoying.

What? Prove to me that the split is rich vs poor not black vs white. Both are factors and poor is a larger one but a race gap is certainly there.

That's wrong. And besides, that's not how investigations work anyway.

I told you --- see Leonard Little as an example. I don't have to prove anything to you.

Right, but this isn't a one or the other situation. I agree there is a wealth gap, but there is also a race gap.

Wealth 99%. Race 1%.

Pretty sure OJ was guilty...

Posted by cccp1014 on 5/31/2018 11:10:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 5/31/2018 9:45:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 5/30/2018 6:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 5/30/2018 6:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 5/30/2018 5:04:00 PM (view original):
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2017/09/11/1706255114.full

Since 1989, whites receive on average 36% more callbacks than African Americans, and 24% more callbacks than Latinos. We observe no change in the level of hiring discrimination against African Americans over the past 25 years, although we find modest evidence of a decline in discrimination against Latinos. Accounting for applicant education, applicant gender, study method, occupational groups, and local labor market conditions does little to alter this result. Contrary to claims of declining discrimination in American society, our estimates suggest that levels of discrimination remain largely unchanged, at least at the point of hire.

...

Do we find evidence of change over time in rates of hiring discrimination? With respect to African Americans, the answer is no. Fig. 1 plots estimates of discrimination by year, with linear trends of best fit and 95% confidence regions (detailed estimates are in SI Appendix, section 3 and Table S3; in Fig. 1, we exponentiate predictions to present predicted values as discrimination ratios rather than less interpretable log discrimination ratios). The solid line captures the trend since 1990. The dashed line extends this time trend back to 1972, adding four resume audits conducted from 1972 to 1980. The size of the symbol is proportional to the weight it is given in the meta-analysis. The line of best fit for studies since 1990 is close to flat, sloping slightly upward, suggesting no change in the rate of discrimination over the past 25 years.

Surveys indicated that whites increasingly endorsed the principle of equal treatment regardless of race (4). Rates of high school graduation for whites and African Americans converged substantially, and the black–white test score gap declined (5, 6). Large companies increasingly recognized diversity as a goal and revamped their hiring to curtail practices that disadvantaged minority applicants (7). With the election of the country’s first African-American president in 2008, many concluded that the country had finally moved beyond its troubled racial past (8).



Same article

Yeah. That's why they were surprised to find that racial discrimination in hiring hadn't decreased over time.

cccp?

bad luck. Sir. I have told you 100x I am not arguing stats. I can attack each instance one at a time if you like. It has to do with applications and income and not stats. My goodness. It is like talking to a wall. Again.

I WILL NOT ARGUE STATS. Because stats can be deceiving.

I also state that there are racist people, including racist police officers and racist landlords but not ALL police officers are racist and not ALL landlords are racist.

Do you understand this post? See if you can answer in a one word answer "Yes" or "No"

I bet you can't.

Again, your problem is that you assume that two things cannot be happening at the same time.

To you it is:
Poor disadvantage OR black disadvantage.
Single parenthood OR institutional racism.
All people are racist OR no one is racist.
All institutions completely discriminate OR no discrimination whatsoever.

Stats can be deceiving when in the wrong context. But it is important to remember that stats are stories of actual people. For every stat of justice discrimination, people actually got sent to jail.

Posted by cccp1014 on 5/31/2018 1:03:00 PM (view original):
When I play against them they school me more often than not, what do you think I mean "personal experience". There was an SI article about it too. You see this as a negative. I see it as a positive.

I know what you are thinking. I am a sucky athlete because I am a Jew. But I am actually OK. In my prime I was 5'10, 180 and I could touch the rim when jumping.

https://www.si.com/vault/1997/12/08/8093391/what-ever-happened-to-the-white-athlete-unsure-of-his-place-in-a-sports-world-dominated-by-blacks-who-are-hungrier-harder-working-and-perhaps-physiologically-superior-the-young-white-male-is-dropping-out-of-the-athletic-mainstr

I'm pretty sure I would school you too (I played college baseball and I'm much better than all my friends at basically any sport), and I'm white.

If you look at all major sports (including the Olympics) globally, I think you'd have a tough time making the argument that blacks are genetically gifted as athletes. Blacks are concentrated in the NBA and NFL, making them more visible to Americans, but there are relatively few blacks in MLB, NHL, MLS, PGA, Premier League, etc.

It seems like you're arguing, "yeah blacks face racism and that racism increases poverty rates and jail sentences and makes it harder for them to go to school and get jobs, but, they are generally better athletes so...no biggie. Hope you can dunk, kid."

Posted by cccp1014 on 5/31/2018 11:26:00 AM (view original):
LMAO --- I knew you could not give a one word answer.

Then the stats show the NBA and NFL are racist. Those stats are misleading. My dad and I used to own properties. There is a plethora of data that has to be reviewed before renting. Most significantly:

• Employment
• Compensation
• References

It has to do with comp. first and foremost followed by references. We can discuss each case individually if you like but stats show that whites are wealthier. That is not shocking. And I have explained to you that this delta is shrinking. Don't tell me what stats show, you are smart guy (compared to tangplay) you understand that stats can be misleading.

Jews by far are the wealthiest segment in the US. Does that mean I have Jewish privilege? Stats are misleading and you know this and that is why you hang your hat on them.

And you also can't read. I asked for a one word answer.

The NBA and NFL stats:
Are a tiny fraction of the populous.
However the NBA and NFL do discriminate.

Not at all. I think in track and field they dominate too. I agree that in hoops and the NFL (soccer too) they are better from what I have seen. Can you name one white CB? I don't see that as a negative btw. Scandanavians are generally better power lifters. Brazilians kick *** in soccer and MMA. Asians are excellent at badminton. Jews are excellent in owning teams. LOL.

You may or may not school me. Maybe you're a superior athlete? Would you school me in h2h combat? :)

What are your stats in terms of height and weight?

I don't think it is racism that increases poverty rates and jail sentences, it is the lack of two parents. Nice try.

Posted by tangplay on 5/31/2018 1:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 5/31/2018 11:26:00 AM (view original):
LMAO --- I knew you could not give a one word answer.

Then the stats show the NBA and NFL are racist. Those stats are misleading. My dad and I used to own properties. There is a plethora of data that has to be reviewed before renting. Most significantly:

• Employment
• Compensation
• References

It has to do with comp. first and foremost followed by references. We can discuss each case individually if you like but stats show that whites are wealthier. That is not shocking. And I have explained to you that this delta is shrinking. Don't tell me what stats show, you are smart guy (compared to tangplay) you understand that stats can be misleading.

Jews by far are the wealthiest segment in the US. Does that mean I have Jewish privilege? Stats are misleading and you know this and that is why you hang your hat on them.

And you also can't read. I asked for a one word answer.

The NBA and NFL stats:
Are a tiny fraction of the populous.
However the NBA and NFL do discriminate.

How do the NBA and NFL discriminate? This I have to hear.

Posted by cccp1014 on 5/31/2018 1:10:00 PM (view original):
Wealth 99%. Race 1%.

Pretty sure OJ was guilty...

OK so if a white and black person have equal incomes and are in court (both are innocent), you think that the black person has an equal chance of being convicted?

Posted by cccp1014 on 5/31/2018 1:20:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 5/31/2018 1:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 5/31/2018 11:26:00 AM (view original):
LMAO --- I knew you could not give a one word answer.

Then the stats show the NBA and NFL are racist. Those stats are misleading. My dad and I used to own properties. There is a plethora of data that has to be reviewed before renting. Most significantly:

• Employment
• Compensation
• References

It has to do with comp. first and foremost followed by references. We can discuss each case individually if you like but stats show that whites are wealthier. That is not shocking. And I have explained to you that this delta is shrinking. Don't tell me what stats show, you are smart guy (compared to tangplay) you understand that stats can be misleading.

Jews by far are the wealthiest segment in the US. Does that mean I have Jewish privilege? Stats are misleading and you know this and that is why you hang your hat on them.

And you also can't read. I asked for a one word answer.

The NBA and NFL stats:
Are a tiny fraction of the populous.
However the NBA and NFL do discriminate.

How do the NBA and NFL discriminate? This I have to hear.

I know people who have been turned down because they are too white. There is stigma there. It is one of many factors, but many people face it.

That's where I think you are incorrect, tang. Skin color, gender, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation...all of those things are subordinate to the one true dividing line - money and the power derived by possessing it. The elite (wealthy) use all of these divide and conquer, emotional hot-button issues, to keep the 99.5% of people who don't have enormous wealth in line and squabbling amongst themselves. It just so happens that, in this country, most of the elite are white. In other countries, they are black, or Islamic, or tribe X (or whatever.) On the surface, it looks like racism, sexism, homophobia, fill in the blank. What it really is is a very successful deflection by those with power and money to stay distanced from those without it.

This kind of class warfare is how very small groups remain in a dominant position. Eventually, the masses will get tired of it and overthrow the elite through some sort of coup d'etat. A new group of aristocracy is created from the ruins and away we go again..

Posted by cccp1014 on 5/31/2018 1:19:00 PM (view original):
Not at all. I think in track and field they dominate too. I agree that in hoops and the NFL (soccer too) they are better from what I have seen. Can you name one white CB? I don't see that as a negative btw. Scandanavians are generally better power lifters. Brazilians kick *** in soccer and MMA. Asians are excellent at badminton. Jews are excellent in owning teams. LOL.

You may or may not school me. Maybe you're a superior athlete? Would you school me in h2h combat? :)

What are your stats in terms of height and weight?

I don't think it is racism that increases poverty rates and jail sentences, it is the lack of two parents. Nice try.

How could only having one parent get you a longer jail sentence than a white person who committed the same crime with the same criminal background?

Posted by tangplay on 5/31/2018 1:20:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 5/31/2018 1:10:00 PM (view original):
Wealth 99%. Race 1%.

Pretty sure OJ was guilty...

OK so if a white and black person have equal incomes and are in court (both are innocent), you think that the black person has an equal chance of being convicted?

Yes

Posted by bad_luck on 5/31/2018 1:38:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 5/31/2018 1:19:00 PM (view original):
Not at all. I think in track and field they dominate too. I agree that in hoops and the NFL (soccer too) they are better from what I have seen. Can you name one white CB? I don't see that as a negative btw. Scandanavians are generally better power lifters. Brazilians kick *** in soccer and MMA. Asians are excellent at badminton. Jews are excellent in owning teams. LOL.

You may or may not school me. Maybe you're a superior athlete? Would you school me in h2h combat? :)

What are your stats in terms of height and weight?

I don't think it is racism that increases poverty rates and jail sentences, it is the lack of two parents. Nice try.

How could only having one parent get you a longer jail sentence than a white person who committed the same crime with the same criminal background?

No two situations are identical.