This thread is out of control.

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/22/2012 11:37:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/22/2012 11:34:00 AM (view original):

Posted by oriolemagic on 2/22/2012 11:30:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/22/2012 11:20:00 AM (view original):
1.  I haven't.
2.  Yes.  Math and probability suggest they pitched equally for all pitchers.  I was being generous by giving them 20%.
3.  It's 140 accumulated innings.  Less than 10% of an entire season.  I'm fine with using them also because of #2.

Ok lets focus on 2.   

Give me reasons these guys would pitch, outside of a) blowout, b) everybody is tired (or injury replacement).  Then tell me how often you attribute it to a vs. b.

Sure.  They're on the pitching staff.  Do you carry pitchers you don't expect to pitch?

Also, you can check the game logs to see when they pitched.  If you've done that, go ahead and say so.   I also hope, if you did, that you recorded their stats when relieving Sheldon.   If you did that and found that they gave Sheldon 81 innings worse than .288/1.47/4.56, please say so.  You'll have a very good bullet in your gun that I can't believe you haven't shot.

I dont need to check the game logs to tell you they did worse then that when he pitched.  Look at their stats, none of them are better then that, so I wouldnt expect them to magically pitch better when in relief of Sheldon. Honestly, I am not really sure the point you are trying to prove here, these pitchers simply prove my point.  They are worse then average and on his major league staff.  The innings that Sheldon doesnt pitch are being filled with these guys, who in return produce less wins then Ducey.  That being said, I have no desire to argue this point based on one particular staff.  If he has the best staff in world and  has guys like this on his squad it only makes my point stronger.. how many other staffs have more guys like this and worse?  

The fact of the matter is, it's guys like this who are replacing those extra innings, because the guys who are above average are all ready being used to capacity or close to it.  Dont you put your best pitchers in position to pitch the most?  If you dont, your not fully managing your team.

What happens after a pitcher is removed from the game should have no bearing on his CYA worthiness. To use that as a basis of argument is borderline retarded.

The argument at hand is that Sheldon + Average Pitcher for 81 innings = Ducey and that Sheldon should win the Cy Young because its easy to replace those 81 innings with an above average pitcher.  I disagree with that statement, and Mike somehow is arguing that case while showing below average pitchers.  I agree that using other players on his team in the argument is pointless, but the concept is not.

Posted by oriolemagic on 2/22/2012 7:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/22/2012 11:37:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/22/2012 11:34:00 AM (view original):

Posted by oriolemagic on 2/22/2012 11:30:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/22/2012 11:20:00 AM (view original):
1.  I haven't.
2.  Yes.  Math and probability suggest they pitched equally for all pitchers.  I was being generous by giving them 20%.
3.  It's 140 accumulated innings.  Less than 10% of an entire season.  I'm fine with using them also because of #2.

Ok lets focus on 2.   

Give me reasons these guys would pitch, outside of a) blowout, b) everybody is tired (or injury replacement).  Then tell me how often you attribute it to a vs. b.

Sure.  They're on the pitching staff.  Do you carry pitchers you don't expect to pitch?

Also, you can check the game logs to see when they pitched.  If you've done that, go ahead and say so.   I also hope, if you did, that you recorded their stats when relieving Sheldon.   If you did that and found that they gave Sheldon 81 innings worse than .288/1.47/4.56, please say so.  You'll have a very good bullet in your gun that I can't believe you haven't shot.

I dont need to check the game logs to tell you they did worse then that when he pitched.  Look at their stats, none of them are better then that, so I wouldnt expect them to magically pitch better when in relief of Sheldon. Honestly, I am not really sure the point you are trying to prove here, these pitchers simply prove my point.  They are worse then average and on his major league staff.  The innings that Sheldon doesnt pitch are being filled with these guys, who in return produce less wins then Ducey.  That being said, I have no desire to argue this point based on one particular staff.  If he has the best staff in world and  has guys like this on his squad it only makes my point stronger.. how many other staffs have more guys like this and worse?  

The fact of the matter is, it's guys like this who are replacing those extra innings, because the guys who are above average are all ready being used to capacity or close to it.  Dont you put your best pitchers in position to pitch the most?  If you dont, your not fully managing your team.

I've tried to refrain from doing this but you're forcing me into it.  You're either a dumbass, just poking people even though you understand or you're a dumbass.

I'll say it one more time just for the hell of it.   Sheldon pitched 205 much better innings than Ducey.  Ducey pitched 81 more innings.   To even have an argument that those innings were invaluable, the 81 innings would have to be somewhere in the neighborhood of .288/1.47/4.56.    Honolulu had 4 pitchers who couldn't produce that sort of thing. They threw 140 innings.   Less than 10% of the total innings.     If they threw all 81 of those innings, Ducey's total value would have been better in his 36 starts.  Math and probabities say they might have thrown 16 innings or so at the most.     It's just absolutely retarded to pretend that Honolulu didn't get more from Sheldon's 34 starts than your team got from Ducey in his 36 starts. 

Posted by oriolemagic on 2/22/2012 8:06:00 PM (view original):
The argument at hand is that Sheldon + Average Pitcher for 81 innings = Ducey and that Sheldon should win the Cy Young because its easy to replace those 81 innings with an above average pitcher.  I disagree with that statement, and Mike somehow is arguing that case while showing below average pitchers.  I agree that using other players on his team in the argument is pointless, but the concept is not.

No, that's not what the argument is.  The argument is that Sheldon + 81 innings of something = Ducey.  Or to redefine it slightly differently, Sheldon = Ducey - 81 innings of something.  Determining the value of those 81 IPs with respect to the difference in ballparks is the important factor. 

In this case, the "81 innings of something" is a .288 AVG, 1.47 WHIP, and 4.56 ERA.  Even in an extreme hitters ballpark, those numbers are unimpressive.

So that redefines the equation to Sheldon = Ducey - 81 unimpressive IP's.  It's impossible to argue anything other than that characterization of the difference between the two.

Which clearly indicates that Sheldon > Ducey.

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