as i said, tewks was a freak and exception...but i guess you missed that part of what i wrote because you were too interested in getting your point across...which, to anyone who's ever played past high school or does ACTUAL, real-life stats knows...you have to hit corners with movement to get just about any pro hitter out. i'm not trying to be a jerk to you. but i do know what i'm stating here to be a fact. to throw the ball down the center of the plate just to keep from walking anyone usually results in a stiff neck from watching it whiz past your head at a high velocity.

if anyone knows anything about clemens, they know he had pinpoint accuracy. he practiced it all his life and was also a freak of nature. he deliberately threw balls out of the strike zone and would not "give in" to hitters because he knew what the results would be...so, he walked a few batters per nine...he's a HOF.

i could go on and on with examples that i know about, but it would be pointless and you'll never admit that you might be a little off the mark...so, i'll give you the last word to avoid poking shots at each other.

even though tewks was a freak, his record was 110-102 (hardly a phenom) and gave up about 200 more hits than innings pitched, and never won 20 games... hardly in the same class as a maddux and certainly wouldn't be considered "great" by any of his peers.

I agree with a point that was made earlier that some pitchers (like Ryan) need to walk hitters to be effective.

Not to say Ryan intentionally walked hitters...when you throw 100 mph, sometimes it's hard to reign it in (another factor in walks), but if you are a little wild around the edges, you'll intimidate people and your strikes will be more effective.

Take Daniel Cabrera (an extreme example). With the O's, in one start, he'd give up 0 walks through like 5 IP, but have given up 8 hits and 5 ER.

Another start, which I remember specifically at Tampa Bay, he pitched 5 innings, gave up one hit, 9 BB, 10 K and 0 runs.

Bottom line, if the walks don't hurt the guy, it's not a big deal. It's like a guy who hits 50 HR and strikes out 150 times. The strikeouts are worth the 50 HR.

What it boils down to is if you have a guy with good stuff who walks a lot of batters, there's a 50% chance he'll throw a ball that'll be taken or a 50% chance he'll throw a strike that'll be missed or hit for an out (speaking very generally, obviously).

If you have a guy with average stuff who pounds the strike zone, the two possibilities are a ball that's taken or a strike that's hit.

Bottom line, as was already stated: it boils down to the overall effectiveness of the pitcher, not the walks.

Quote: Originally Posted By boogerlips on 11/27/2009Some of you have tried the square/rectangle logic with me by citing successful pitchers who gave up walks. The reason that logic doesn't work is because you can't prove that they wouldn't have been even better had they not walked so many. I've noticed that all of the absolute best seasons from pitchers are ones with microscopic BB/9

I am having trouble getting my square into my rectangle hole.

Watching this years WS, it SEEMED like everytime a Philly walked a batter, the Yankees would get that person over for a run.

Quote: Originally Posted By dahsdebater on 11/24/2009So maybe TJ didn't actually prove that your point was wrong. However, I actually would say that some pitchers would be less effective if they threw less balls. This is particularly true of pitchers with very high velocity fastballs. The success of Nolan Ryan, early career Randy Johnson, J. R. Richard, etc. attests to this fact. If a pitcher throws hard enough that it really scares the hitter to think he's not entirely sure where it's going and doesn't have pinpoint control, throwing some inside instead of down the middle is usually going to keep the hitters off balance. You can walk 3 guys in an inning and still not give up any runs, more if you get a DP.

Does anyone else remember Ryne Duren?

Quote: Originally Posted By truemen on 11/27/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By boogerlips on 11/27/2009
Some of you have tried the square/rectangle logic with me by citing successful pitchers who gave up walks. The reason that logic doesn't work is because you can't prove that they wouldn't have been even better had they not walked so many. I've noticed that all of the absolute best seasons from pitchers are ones with microscopic BB/9.

I am having trouble getting my square into my rectangle hole.

Watching this years WS, it SEEMED like everytime a Philly walked a batter, the Yankees would get that person over for a run.

and it also seemed that the phils would get a walk and leave him stranded

i would think that virtually everyone who might chance ro read this has watched many a baseball game, and is considerably more knowledgeable than the average fan. No one here would disagree with the basic fact that allowing baserunners translates into runs. a certain number of walks a pitcher mjght surrender are due to pitching around a hitter, which usually is due to an unusually good hitter, or trying to take advantage of y/righty pcts. But boog, i respect your opinions, which are well supported, and while your basic premise is correct, it is also cliche. If the answer for the pitcher was as simple as you would like to make it, i'm am absolutely certain they would hardly ever walk a batter. In my youth, I probably pitched 300-400 games, from little league to high school, and, while i was never the star of the team, i was recognized as a contributor to several championship teams, and i did, in fact, have excellent control. I assure you, throwing strikes ain't always what it's cracked up to be. Happiness, for a pitcher, is 3 outfielders who can run like gazelles, and very deep fences.

Of course the goal is to throw strikes, but quality strikes. As one pitcher said, everyone in the major leagues can throw strikes, but quality strikes = command. It is not surprising to find that pitchers who have pitched 125+ inning with super low bb/9 rates have been successful. They wouldn't get to pitch 125+ innings if they were allowing a .400 batting average most likely.

But Boogs point is well taken. We constantly hear a good scouting report about a young pitcher is: "He pounds the strike zone" -- that does NOT mean throw it down the middle when you have a 3-ball count (that part by Boogerlips was silly), but it does mean they don't "nibble" or waste pitches. I heard an interview with Greg Maddox's Braves pitching coach who said when Maddox came from the, Cubs, Maddox told the pitching coach to tell the manager ahead of time that he (Maddox) would give up a lot of 0-2 hits because he was going to go after the hitters when he had the advantage (0-2, or 1-2). That confidence and attitude was a large part of what made Maddox so great.

There are 45 guys (out of 350ish) with walks under 1.5 and ERA's over 5.



Maybe, the guys that are good pitchers and don't walk people do well. Maybe the guys that aren't good pitchers but don't walk people don't do well.