Unconventional pitching staff ethical? Topic

moustachee
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Quote: Originally posted by MikeT23 on 12/11/2009Managers don't get fired for winning.  They get fired for losing or if players have their arms fly off delivering a pitch.  So, if they want to do something unconventional, they need to make sure it works.Nolan Ryan has started a top to bottom organizational change with pitchers.  They are expected to pitch not leave the game after 6 innings.   I think, if he sticks around long enough, the Rangers will change the way pitching works.  Assuming they win and don't kill every arm in the organization.

Totally agree. Which is why I said managers are afraid to implement something drastically different--if it doesn't go well *from the start*, they might get canned for it. (While it might just require better personnel or time for the personnel to adjust to a new pattern)
12/11/2009 4:42 PM
eeyore1959
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HBD has no egos. Where a real pitcher would want to pitch in the innings where wins are (6th on), and wouldn't just want to pitch 3 innings and leave for someone else to get the w-l stats, HBD pitchers don't really "care".

If my memory recalls, there was the idea that Chuck Tanner had about 3 innings per pitcher in the 70's, but it got kiboshed when everyone wanted the 4th through 6th innings.
12/11/2009 7:04 PM
eeyore1959
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With the number of 30-40dur30-40stam pitchers out there, I am surprised that someone hasn't hoarded them up (when some owners put them on the market) and built a staff with them.
12/11/2009 7:07 PM
dwoolery
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I think it's a great idea. In fact for those who haven't read "The Book", by Tango, he describes an NL staff like that where you get a noticeable advantage by never letting the pitcher bat.
12/11/2009 8:18 PM
snake_p
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Quote: Originally Posted By double-a on 12/11/2009
I don't understand why anyone would have a problem with this.
I can. The OP said it himself:

Quote: Originally Posted By stiller609 on 12/11/2009
This pitching staff has dominated the league the last two seasons and the team itself has won over 110 games both times.
But it certainly isn't cheating.
12/11/2009 11:25 PM
torrone
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Quote: Originally Posted By MikeT23 on 12/11/2009
Managers don't get fired for winning. They get fired for losing or if players have their arms fly off delivering a pitch. So, if they want to do something unconventional, they need to make sure it works.

Nolan Ryan has started a top to bottom organizational change with pitchers. They are expected to pitch not leave the game after 6 innings. I think, if he sticks around long enough, the Rangers will change the way pitching works. Assuming they win and don't kill every arm in the organization.



Warren Spahn & Juan Marichal once hooked up for a 15 inning 1-0 game in which both pitchers went the distance. Their arms didn't fall off and both are in the Hall. Spahn pitched well into his 40's and owns the most wins after age 30 of anyone in history, I believe. Jim Kaat, who pitched in parts of 4 decades(60's to 90's) and Bob Feller are also a big advocates of throwing often and a lot. Assuming a pitcher's mechanics are good, throwing a lot should not be detrimental to career longevity. What the Yankees are doing with Joba Chamberlain makes me sick! 3 inning starter? They're treating him like he's made of porcelain. When will they realize that this guy is a reliever and the obvious successor to Mariano.
12/12/2009 6:52 AM
torrone
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Quote: Originally Posted By MikeT23 on 12/11/2009Just because you're on record as not opposing something doesn't mean it's not cheating
It's NOT cheating. Some may consider it unethical. But if you are fielding a team that is so platoon oriented that your guys are useless when the opposite arm comes in the game, maybe some adjustments in the players you have should be made.
12/12/2009 6:55 AM
MikeT23
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I didn't say it was unethical or cheating. I was simply telling zbrent, because he said "I'm on record....", that his opinion alone doesn't dictate what is/isn't cheating.
12/12/2009 7:09 AM
MikeT23
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That said, your(nor my) opinion doesn't dictate cheating either. So putting NOT in all caps doesn't mean any more, or any less, than "not".
12/12/2009 7:11 AM
ttnorm
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Let me play devil's advocate here. It is unethical! Same reason that you never see it done in MLB except for a few short term bizarre exceptions. No Manager makes this move to hide a bunch of LHPs behind a RHSP who pitches to one batter.

Thoughts as to why this strategy is not used in MLB?
12/12/2009 8:27 AM
double-a
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This post could not be converted. To view the original post's thread, click here.
12/12/2009 8:59 AM
MikeT23
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Quote: Originally Posted By ttnorm on 12/12/2009
Let me play devil's advocate here. It is unethical! Same reason that you never see it done in MLB except for a few short term bizarre exceptions. No Manager makes this move to hide a bunch of LHPs behind a RHSP who pitches to one batter.

Thoughts as to why this strategy is not used in MLB?



Well, a couple of reasons have been mentioned but you also have the warming up process. While it does not factor into your pitch count, you are actually throwing the ball with velocity. Pitching 3 innings every other day(40-50 pitches per game) probably translates into 70-80 pitches every other day. That's a lot of throwing over the course of 162 games.
12/12/2009 10:14 AM
tomhighway
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People get mad at things that are done differently especially if it negatively effects their team. Had the same people had the idea and ran with it, it would no longer be "cheating" in their minds. You do what you have to do to win.. It's no different than signing CF's to play LF and RF and all SS's for the IF... Your choice to load up on great defensive players is no different then what he's doing.
12/13/2009 1:25 AM
schuyler101
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Quote: Originally posted by ttnorm on 12/12/2009Let me play devil's advocate here.  It is unethical!  Same reason that you never see it done in MLB except for a few short term bizarre exceptions.  No Manager makes this move to hide a bunch of LHPs behind a RHSP who pitches to one batter.Thoughts as to why this strategy is not used in MLB?

Baseball (and sports in general) is not conducive to change. The media and fan pressure are the root of this. Thats why we're using most of the same stats we did 100 years ago, anyone with half a brain knows OBP is far superior to Batting Average and people have known this for decades (well before Moneyball) but it is only just now that we're seeing OBP listed in a batters line on television.

I think the reason we don't see a less traditional staff is the same reason we don't see NFL coaches go for it more on 4th down (economists have shown that it makes sense to go for it far more on 4th down). Too much scrutiny, too little job security. Even Belichick who has more job security than any NFL coach was skewered for going for it when statistically it was the correct call.
12/13/2009 11:12 AM
MikeT23
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I think it could be argued that giving Manning the ball on your 30 is not the correct call.
12/13/2009 11:39 AM
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