The Press Was Always A Glitch Topic

vandydave
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heh, while i didnt love the free throw change, i have a greater issue with free throw discrepancies within games than the overall free throw potential process
5/27/2010 3:14 PM
blaank182
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I'm with vd, hell with the rest of you. i'm glad your game is broken.
5/27/2010 3:16 PM
tarheel1991
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A couple more things:


1. My second game - using the fatigue as a guide for when to sub as opposed to target minutes - went a liiiiiiitle bit different than the first:

http://whatifsports.com/hd/GameResults/BoxScore.aspx?gid=5769416


So the major thing to take away here - target minutes is freakin' useless as a sub system (that's what I get for playing the NBA Sim a lot). Clearly, fatigue is heavily influenced by players playing long stretches of time at once - I would argue that they should probably recover a little better on the bench than they appear to currently, but at least you can game-plan for that (by using the fatigue sub system) because the SIM has plenty of dead balls built in.


2. I still think fatigue is too much of an issue if you have to go 11 deep - and not play anyone more than 22-23 minutes, even with great stamina - just to run the press. There are probably fewer college bball teams that go 11 deep than run the press. Besides - while the press is a strenuous defense - it's not like the games are being played at breakneck speed; my two games were played at 70 and 71 possessions. There were about 65 teams that averaged 70 possessions or more a game in division one college bball this season; probably a higher percentage at the lower levels with more "gimmicky" type offenses and defenses.


One thing I would suggest is that Hoops Dynasty move to the 13-scholly limit - like in DI college bball - as opposed to 12. I just don't think it's realistic to need contributions from all 12 scholarship players in any system - you should have space to have a "project" or two on the team that doesn't have to play. 13 schollies might make that more realistic.
5/27/2010 3:20 PM
cheeznsweet
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Quote: Originally Posted By tarheel1991 on 5/27/2010



A couple more things:




So the major thing to take away here - target minutes is freakin' useless as a sub system

2. I still think fatigue is too much of an issue if you have to go 11 deep - and not play anyone more than 22-23 minutes, even with great stamina - just to run the press. There are probably fewer college bball teams that go 11 deep than run the press. Besides - while the press is a strenuous defense - it's not like the games are being played at breakneck speed; my two games were played at 70 and 71 possessions. There were about 65 teams that averaged 70 possessions or more a game in division one college bball this season; probably a higher percentage at the lower levels with more "gimmicky" type offenses and defenses.



To the first - yes. Target mins is a disaster of epic proportions.

To the second - this is obviously a huge issue. From what I recall, fatigue used to be caused by possessions. The issue being that a true full-court press doesn't necessarily end up with more possessions. But the fact is that your guys are covering every inch of the floor and constantly double-teaming the entire way. That's GOT to be waaaay more tiring than jogging back and setting up in a man or zone.

And there is really only one major college program that I can think of that even approaches the FCP - that's Missouri. Other teams may do it from time to time as a change of pace but not for 40 solid minutes.
5/27/2010 3:29 PM
dalter
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Quote: Originally Posted By vandydave on 5/27/2010
Quote: Originally Posted By dalter on 5/27/2010

I agree that the press was too strong before. I think that was a pretty commonly accepted premise. I'm happy to see it reigned in a bit, that needed to happen.

That said, early returns are that the pendulum may have swung too far. I think we'll have a much better idea on that in a few weeks, but if we see press teams with top-tier talent really struggling, that will be pretty definitive.

And VD, I'm not a press coach, but the notion that not using the press somehow made you more "principled" is utter lunacy.

even really talented teams in college hoops don't run the press for a reason, its darn near impossible to run well, that should be the case here.

dalter, dont be jealous i am more principled than you.

Again, if they are going to offer it as a base defense, it needs to be viable. Period.

And if by "more principled" you mean "mired in mediocrity", we're on the same page ...
5/27/2010 3:32 PM
tarheel1991
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This post could not be converted. To view the original post's thread, click here.
5/27/2010 3:40 PM
cthomas22255
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Maybe all is not lost for the press. Here is a box score of FB/Press team vs. Triangle/Press. The FB/Press team stayed mostly fresh throughout the game, the Triangle/Press team did not, they played mostly Tired or Very Tired.

The biggest factor is STA. The Triangle team has low STA even among upperclassmen. The FB/Press team had very high STA. It appears STA is simply going to be the biggest factor now. If you're running without depth or with a young team w/low STA you're going to get killed. Otherwise, you can run as much as you want:

http://www.whatifsports.com/hd/GameResults/BoxScore.aspx?gid=5769889
5/27/2010 3:43 PM
dcy0827
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Switching gears for just a second (and not to get off topic too much), but has anyone else had issues with three point shooting and the fact that the percentages seem on the high side.

Two quick examples, in Allen last night Mississippi State gave up 14-17! from behind the arc to a Sim team.

Today, in my Tark afternoon game, I gave up 10-20 while playing a +2 M2M. I know that my result was well within the realm of possibility, but considering that I was specifically trying to stop the three and had some pretty good defenders for D2, it was just a bit discouraging.

Just kinda wondering if anyone else is seeing the same thing, and if so, does it become ticket worthy?
5/27/2010 3:46 PM
vandydave
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Quote: Originally Posted By dalter on 5/27/2010
Quote: Originally Posted By vandydave on 5/27/2010

Quote: Originally Posted By dalter on 5/27/2010

I agree that the press was too strong before. I think that was a pretty commonly accepted premise. I'm happy to see it reigned in a bit, that needed to happen.

That said, early returns are that the pendulum may have swung too far. I think we'll have a much better idea on that in a few weeks, but if we see press teams with top-tier talent really struggling, that will be pretty definitive.

And VD, I'm not a press coach, but the notion that not using the press somehow made you more "principled" is utter lunacy.

even really talented teams in college hoops don't run the press for a reason, its darn near impossible to run well, that should be the case here.

dalter, dont be jealous i am more principled than you.

Again, if they are going to offer it as a base defense, it needs to be viable. Period.

And if by "more principled" you mean "mired in mediocrity", we're on the same page ...

heh, i own my current mediocrity.

at least i didnt get my panties in a wad and make a big display to retire from the game only to come back and be even more obsessive than before.
5/27/2010 3:48 PM
mniven
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Quote: Originally Posted By dcy0827 on 5/27/2010
Switching gears for just a second (and not to get off topic too much), but has anyone else had issues with three point shooting and the fact that the percentages seem on the high side.

Two quick examples, in Allen last night Mississippi State gave up 14-17! from behind the arc to a Sim team.

Today, in my Tark afternoon game, I gave up 10-20 while playing a +2 M2M. I know that my result was well within the realm of possibility, but considering that I was specifically trying to stop the three and had some pretty good defenders for D2, it was just a bit discouraging.

Just kinda wondering if anyone else is seeing the same thing, and if so, does it become ticket worthy?

Yes, it generally has seemed like there are a lot more threes going in. In one of my recent games I played a 3-2 zone at +2 and gave up like 7-9 shooting from three (not a lot of buckets, obviously, but a pretty high percentage against that defensive setting).
5/27/2010 3:51 PM
dalter
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Quote: Originally Posted By vandydave on 5/27/2010
Quote: Originally Posted By dalter on 5/27/2010

Quote: Originally Posted By vandydave on 5/27/2010

Quote: Originally Posted By dalter on 5/27/2010

I agree that the press was too strong before. I think that was a pretty commonly accepted premise. I'm happy to see it reigned in a bit, that needed to happen.

That said, early returns are that the pendulum may have swung too far. I think we'll have a much better idea on that in a few weeks, but if we see press teams with top-tier talent really struggling, that will be pretty definitive.

And VD, I'm not a press coach, but the notion that not using the press somehow made you more "principled" is utter lunacy.

even really talented teams in college hoops don't run the press for a reason, its darn near impossible to run well, that should be the case here.

dalter, dont be jealous i am more principled than you.

Again, if they are going to offer it as a base defense, it needs to be viable. Period.

And if by "more principled" you mean "mired in mediocrity", we're on the same page ...

heh, i own my current mediocrity.

at least i didnt get my panties in a wad and make a big display to retire from the game only to come back and be even more obsessive than before.

Lol, I'm maybe 1/10th as obsessive as before. Maybe 1/20th. (Whether that reflects positively or negatively on me, I'm not sure.) Big reason I came back was because TK was gone. #2 was because I missed you.
5/27/2010 3:54 PM
vandydave
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i'm 1/10th as obsessive as i was 3 years ago as well. apparently last day recruiting, 10 second gameplanning, and refusing to press and recruit track stars wasnt a recipe to keep winning championships.
5/27/2010 3:56 PM
ike1024
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Quote: Originally Posted By tarheel1991 on 5/27/2010
Yeah - I would agree with Mizzou being the only big-time team that really does it a lot. But I would point out that they basically only go 10 deep, which some suggest is not realistic for a press team. The only major-conference team that presses a lot that's even close to them is Clemson, and they're basically a FCP/Man team. I think it would be more realistic if FCP/Man and FCP/zone were options for defense instead of straight FCP, but that's a separate argument.


And I think press possessions should be more tiring than regular ones - I just think they've gone a little too far, especially in terms of how quickly guys regain their energy.
But they don't press and trap non-stop. They press on made baskets and fall into a halfcourt defense.

There are NO teams in college basketball who run WIS' version of the FCP.
5/27/2010 3:57 PM
fd343ny
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Too few games to know with any confidence, but I'm convinced at this point that the changes for the press were very much in the right direction. Whether it went too far is hard to know.

Second, keep in mind this is a dynamic situation - it is clear that stamina and deeep depth will matter more. The 9 and 10 man rotations running press with just good stamina will no longer work. That seems right to me. Users who want to run FCP will need to care more about stamina (see GD where it clearly matters) and may need to sacrifice in order to get a roster that can press - maybe not go for that one great guy and instead get two darn good players.....maybe get players who have ATH and SPD and STAM to run the press, but cant shoot real well or dont have great DEF potential. All that seems like the right direction to me also.

NOW, if it looks like the FCP is not viable in games between balanced opponents, then it will be seen to have over-corrected. Dont know yet.

Looking at my games and some others I can see games where FCP run uptempo was crushingly effective and I can see games where FCP seemed a total flop.
5/27/2010 4:00 PM
dcy0827
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Submitted this ticket, hoping for Seble to review, just to make sure everything is working properly. I still think the percentage of threes being made is on the high side (I realize it's only been a couple of games, but still). Hopefully he'll take a look and check it out and either make an adjustment or let us know that everything is fine:





Hello, my user ID is dcy0827. Could you please direct this ticket to Seble's attention? I was wondering/hoping if he could check the three point shooting in the new engine? I realize it's only been a couple of games, but it seems like an extraordinary number of three point attempts are being made.

I'm not trying to whine or anything like that, just hoping that he could look into this. I love this game and just want to make sure that it's working as good as it possibly can. As I said, the number (percentage) of three point makes seems a bit on the high side at this point (others have noticed the same thing as well) and I wanted to point this out to him and so he can see what, if anything, needs to be adjusted.

Again, can you forward this ticket to Seble for his review? I would certainly appreciate it and thank you for your time and consideration in this matter. Thanks again.



5/27/2010 4:23 PM
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