Bonds was definitely better than Griffey in the 90s.

Bonds: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/bondsba01.shtml#1990-1999-sum:batting_standard
Griffey: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/griffke02.shtml#1990-1999-sum:batting_standard

He beat him in WAR 85-66.  It's not close.

Posted by llamanunts on 4/22/2011 2:42:00 PM (view original):
There are lots of guys in the hall who broke lots of laws.  My bad-ish, though.  It's not a direct counter to what you were saying with respect to surgery (let's throw TJ surgery into the mix) and contacts.  Still, if you want to use lawbreaking as a bright line, you run into trouble pretty quickly unless you're willing to kick a slew of people out.  For a more direct corollary, insert "But greenies!" speech here.

I'll buy the greenies argument.   I remember it breaking my heart when I read, "Ball Four".   I just have a hard time "ignoring" steroids.   It changed the game so much (whereas greenies didn't have the statistical impact) that it's hard for me to just say no harm, no foul.

Also, I think the HOF denial is the only way that some of these guys are punished and I think they should be.   Unless they develop some sort of medical condition, which I am not hoping for.  If I was a voter, I would look LONG AND HARD at anyone's numbers before voting yes.  Maddux, Glavine, and Griffey are the only ones of the top of my head I would support wholeheartedly.  It might not be fair but I am still a little bitter.   I think those guys cheated, they knew it was wrong, and did it anyway.  It cheapened the game for me.

Do we know for sure when Bonds started using steroids?  The earliest year mentioned that I came across online was 1998.  For the sake of argument let's assume that's correct, and we look at Bonds' career stats through the 1997 season:

.288/.408/.551
1750 hits
321 doubles
56 triples
374 home runs
1244 runs
1094 rbi
1227 walks
417 stolen bases

Through 1997 Bonds also had: 3 MVP awards, 7 GGs, 7 all-star appearances, and a ROY award.  

A little low on the counting stats (although he's got more HR, runs and rbi than, say, Kirby Puckett).  The ratio stats are very good, and I'm pretty sure there are no baseball players with 3 MVP awards who aren't Hall of Famers.  I say he would have gotten in if his career ended after the 1997 season.  

I'm not sure how defensible it is to say that greenies didn't have the statistical impact.  I don't think we can quantify the statistical impact of amphetamines *or* steroids, really.  I take your overall point, and of course your opinion is valid.

/Not as pissy today.

Those are HOF numbers if he never had another hit.

Geesh, Kirby.  Johnny Damon and Mike Cameron have been every bit as good as Kirby was.  Less rapey, too.

Posted by llamanunts on 4/22/2011 3:03:00 PM (view original):
I'm not sure how defensible it is to say that greenies didn't have the statistical impact.  I don't think we can quantify the statistical impact of amphetamines *or* steroids, really.  I take your overall point, and of course your opinion is valid.

/Not as pissy today.

I don't think you can put a % on either's impact but I think it's pretty obvious that  steroids had a more significant impact on the raw numbers.  

Posted by llamanunts on 4/22/2011 3:13:00 PM (view original):
Geesh, Kirby.  Johnny Damon and Mike Cameron have been every bit as good as Kirby was.  Less rapey, too.

That's really not true....and it was an assault, not rape.

Here's a pretty damning piece:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/news/2003/03/11/si_puckett/

If 10% of it is true, it makes him pretty damn awful.

Puckett had a somewhat higher peak than the other guys, that's true.  JD and MC are above him in career, which I guess isn't fair to Kirby.  I'll admit I don't like being fair to Kirby.  Rapey... okay, I didn't mean to imply he raped someone.  Just that he was kinda rapey.  We'll go with molesty.

I still think he's a joke pick for HOF.

I wonder how Costas feels about naming his kid Keith Michael Kirby.

Oh, missed this: "I don't think you can put a % on either's impact but I think it's pretty obvious that  steroids had a more significant impact on the raw numbers."

Perhaps a flaw of mine, but I don't like obvious.  I like data.

Here's some data:

HR/G went up between 20% and 50% (depends on where you want to make your baseline) in the the NL during the steroid era.  Now, there are certainly other factors but steroids has to be considered a major one.

Can you find anything that  was effected as much in the greenie era (1960-1980?)?    I am not even sure how greenies effected the game?  

Runs scored went up around 20%.   I am using 1991 as a baseline for this.  It seems 1992 was  a pretty extreme pitchers and 1993 had expansion; 1991 seemed fair.

You can't use the legal argument on steroids as it takes 0 effort to go use steroids legally. They're legal in Mexico. They're legal in Canada as long as you're not selling them. They're legal with a prescription. The issue behind steroid use in baseball is a morality issue.

If baseball wasn't testing then that's on them 100%. I just can't blame any of the players for using. In a 1997 poll of olympic athletes, they were asked if they would take a banned substance if it would help them win and it was 100% sure they would not get caught. 98% responded that they would. They also asked if they would take said substance if it caused them to win every event for 5 years but then resulted in death. Over 50% responded yes... These are elite athletes who stand to gain so much by being as good as they can be. I agree that there should be rules against performance enhancing drugs; Not to protect the integrity of the sport (whatever that means) or the record books, but to protect the athletes from themselves.

MLB created the steroid era by not policing it. If other clean players felt cheated, maybe they should've made a big stink. As it stands though the era is what it is and I think everyone needs to get of this high moral horse and just continue to judge players by how they fared against their peers. We can never quantify their effect. Did cocaine help Tim Raines steal bases? Did greenies help Pete Rose play everyday to set the hit record? Did they give Willie Mays an extra step in the OF? Babe Ruth was pretty good I hear, but it was also reported he'd experiment with things like eating bull testciles and injecting himself with extracts from sheep testicles to try and improve...

Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod are all HOFers. First ballot, no questions asked IMO.

TJ: I don't buy that you can suss the steroid effect out of that.  Pitchers and fielders used it too.  Lots of other things happened, like smaller ballparks replacing bigger ones, teams and players buying into the patience-and-power paradigm, non-Glavine-related strike zones shrinking, etc.

How did greenies affect things?  For one thing, a bunch of players played wired instead of tired.  Alert instead of inert.  Why did I start rhyming?