how many times did Pence keep talking over the moderator when she said his time was up? It seemed like just about every question.

Posted by dahsdebater on 10/8/2020 3:09:00 PM (view original):
How many times did Pence interrupt Harris? It was definitely not a majority. It was maybe 7 or 8, she probably interrupted 4 or 5. Interruptions were really never a significant problem in this debate. Exceeding time in their own responses was the much more significant issue. But once again - we know who you are, we know you will see what you want to see.

It is the opposite.
you are in the minority.
what I said was accurate.

you are a bullshitter and a closet fundamentalist who doesn’t like to be corrected.

it gets under your skin d academy hs ( high school ) debater.

Posted by dahsdebater on 10/8/2020 2:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 10/8/2020 1:14:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 10/8/2020 12:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by coreander on 10/8/2020 9:46:00 AM (view original):
On a scale of 1 to Donald Trump how sexist did you find Mike Pence to be last night?

All of his interruptions and mansplaining reaffirmed my hatred for toxic masculinity.

All in all, I'm beginning to think of Kamala as less of a centrist, which is good.

This is the stupidest popular take, so no shock that you've gone straight there.

Go watch Pence's VP debate from 2016. If anything, he did more "mansplaining" against his white male opponent in that debate. Nobody called it toxic masculinity when the other participant wasn't a woman. What's more, Harris did THE SAME THING in THE SAME DEBATE and nobody's calling it "toxic femininity." In fact, I heard some of the same people who were criticizing Pence for "mansplaining" praising Harris for explaining things clearly, not just for Pence but for the general audience.

This is the problem I have with modern progressives. They want women and minorities to be treated equally until it's inconvenient, and then they want them to be treated differently. I'm totally on board with feminism through roughly the 70s. Since then things have really gone off the rails.

This is actually a really interesting topic. Toxic masculinity is definitely a thing. Does that mean that we need to approach the issue in the same way that core does? No. But the discussion is there to be had.

Obviously toxic masculinity is a thing, although the nomenclature seems a bit weird (/sexist) to me. I would argue, for example, that if you look into the personal and professional life of Hope Solo that she has clearly and repeatedly exhibited the characteristics that would generally fall under that title. The name toxic masculinity inherently presumes characteristic masculine and feminine characteristics, which the people who spend the most time talking about it otherwise reject. But whatever - we agree that the idea commonly called toxic masculinity does, in fact, exist.

I think it's very likely that we'd differ significantly in how we define toxic masculinity, but I also think that under both of our definitions Mike Pence doesn't have a whole lot of it. All of this is somewhat outside of the point that Pence and Harris behaved very similarly in the debate and we have a large community praising one of them and denouncing the other for nearly identical behavior. I just think if we take the political dimension out of it - people who like to talk about toxic masculinity are generally not fans of Mike Pence - step back, and take a look at Pence, he is far, far, far from almost anybody's definition of what toxic masculinity looks like.

Further, this has little to do with my original point that nobody criticized Pence's behavior in this way when he was debating Tim Kaine. I don't buy into the idea that it is somehow progressive and open-minded to demand that he treat Kamala differently because she's a woman. And by the way, she demonstrated amply that she's quite strong enough to stand up for herself and certainly didn't need to be treated differently.

I haven't seen much backlash over how Pence responded to Kamala. Core is the only person that I'm aware of who's drawing attention to it.

The more interesting conversation, I think, is how the public reacts to male and female politicians because of their expectations for genders. For instance, there's a lot of talk of how women have to present themselves to these types of audiences, and whether acceptable actions by men would be perceived the same way if a woman was doing it.

I don't see how the label of toxic masculinity is contradictory.

I also disagree that most of modern feminism is as you're describing. I would call that "pop feminism" or "Buzzfeed feminism", but I don't think that this line of thinking is the one used in academia or among more intelligent feminists nowadays. At least in my political circles, it's broadly rejected.

Posted by dahsdebater on 10/8/2020 2:46:00 PM (view original):

Posted by coreander on 10/8/2020 1:08:00 PM (view original):

Posted by coreander on 10/8/2020 12:55:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 10/8/2020 12:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by coreander on 10/8/2020 9:46:00 AM (view original):
On a scale of 1 to Donald Trump how sexist did you find Mike Pence to be last night?

All of his interruptions and mansplaining reaffirmed my hatred for toxic masculinity.

All in all, I'm beginning to think of Kamala as less of a centrist, which is good.

This is the stupidest popular take, so no shock that you've gone straight there.

Go watch Pence's VP debate from 2016. If anything, he did more "mansplaining" against his white male opponent in that debate. Nobody called it toxic masculinity when the other participant wasn't a woman. What's more, Harris did THE SAME THING in THE SAME DEBATE and nobody's calling it "toxic femininity." In fact, I heard some of the same people who were criticizing Pence for "mansplaining" praising Harris for explaining things clearly, not just for Pence but for the general audience.

This is the problem I have with modern progressives. They want women and minorities to be treated equally until it's inconvenient, and then they want them to be treated differently. I'm totally on board with feminism through roughly the 70s. Since then things have really gone off the rails.

This is the most ignorant statement I have seen on these forums in a long time.

Quoting this again. So you are fundamentally opposed to all the strides women have made towards gender equality since the 1970s? Wow, just wow.

For someone who claims to be a Yale student this is remarkably poor reading comprehension.

My problem is not with women or gender equality. I said the feminism - the feminist movement - has gone off the rails. The reality is that leading feminists in recent decades aren't even interested in gender equality. They're interested in pushing a specific agenda. I can't remember off the top of my head which prominent feminist leader - it might have been Gloria Steinem - said of a woman working for the McCain campaign in 2012 that she must be doing it "to try to impress some guy." That would have flown right in the face of earlier feminism, what I would consider rational feminism. It's frankly demeaning to the woman in question, giving her infantile "girly girl" motives and completely discounting the idea that she might have a different perception of her own best interests than (Steinem?) herself.

Through the 70s, feminists basically embraced the idea that women should be able to do whatever men could do, whatever they wanted to do. Now it's more "women should be able to do whatever they want to do unless it's: vote Republican, be pro-life, stay home to take care of their children (although this is fine for men), in any way choose family over career (also fine for men), etc." It used to be a central tenet of feminism that women were just as intelligent and rational as men and deserved the right to think and decide things for themselves. Now it's a central tenet of feminism that women should all agree with a core sociopolitical framework. This is what I'm not on board with.

That’s what you say I never heard anything like that before.

Posted by dahsdebater on 10/8/2020 3:12:00 PM (view original):
More importantly - everyone continues to ignore the critical central point that what you are angry about is the fact that Mike Pence DIDN'T treat Kamala Harris differently than he treated Tim Kaine.

That’s more bullshit.
im about people being decent.
you have the hangup baby.

Posted by wylie715 on 10/8/2020 3:15:00 PM (view original):
how many times did Pence keep talking over the moderator when she said his time was up? It seemed like just about every question.

I agree. That’s what I saw and we all saw it.

blue hair fly on head.
now exposing his fly during the debate was sexist.

Posted by tangplay on 10/8/2020 3:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 10/8/2020 2:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 10/8/2020 1:14:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 10/8/2020 12:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by coreander on 10/8/2020 9:46:00 AM (view original):
On a scale of 1 to Donald Trump how sexist did you find Mike Pence to be last night?

All of his interruptions and mansplaining reaffirmed my hatred for toxic masculinity.

All in all, I'm beginning to think of Kamala as less of a centrist, which is good.

This is the stupidest popular take, so no shock that you've gone straight there.

Go watch Pence's VP debate from 2016. If anything, he did more "mansplaining" against his white male opponent in that debate. Nobody called it toxic masculinity when the other participant wasn't a woman. What's more, Harris did THE SAME THING in THE SAME DEBATE and nobody's calling it "toxic femininity." In fact, I heard some of the same people who were criticizing Pence for "mansplaining" praising Harris for explaining things clearly, not just for Pence but for the general audience.

This is the problem I have with modern progressives. They want women and minorities to be treated equally until it's inconvenient, and then they want them to be treated differently. I'm totally on board with feminism through roughly the 70s. Since then things have really gone off the rails.

This is actually a really interesting topic. Toxic masculinity is definitely a thing. Does that mean that we need to approach the issue in the same way that core does? No. But the discussion is there to be had.

Obviously toxic masculinity is a thing, although the nomenclature seems a bit weird (/sexist) to me. I would argue, for example, that if you look into the personal and professional life of Hope Solo that she has clearly and repeatedly exhibited the characteristics that would generally fall under that title. The name toxic masculinity inherently presumes characteristic masculine and feminine characteristics, which the people who spend the most time talking about it otherwise reject. But whatever - we agree that the idea commonly called toxic masculinity does, in fact, exist.

I think it's very likely that we'd differ significantly in how we define toxic masculinity, but I also think that under both of our definitions Mike Pence doesn't have a whole lot of it. All of this is somewhat outside of the point that Pence and Harris behaved very similarly in the debate and we have a large community praising one of them and denouncing the other for nearly identical behavior. I just think if we take the political dimension out of it - people who like to talk about toxic masculinity are generally not fans of Mike Pence - step back, and take a look at Pence, he is far, far, far from almost anybody's definition of what toxic masculinity looks like.

Further, this has little to do with my original point that nobody criticized Pence's behavior in this way when he was debating Tim Kaine. I don't buy into the idea that it is somehow progressive and open-minded to demand that he treat Kamala differently because she's a woman. And by the way, she demonstrated amply that she's quite strong enough to stand up for herself and certainly didn't need to be treated differently.

I haven't seen much backlash over how Pence responded to Kamala. Core is the only person that I'm aware of who's drawing attention to it.

The more interesting conversation, I think, is how the public reacts to male and female politicians because of their expectations for genders. For instance, there's a lot of talk of how women have to present themselves to these types of audiences, and whether acceptable actions by men would be perceived the same way if a woman was doing it.

I don't see how the label of toxic masculinity is contradictory.

I also disagree that most of modern feminism is as you're describing. I would call that "pop feminism" or "Buzzfeed feminism", but I don't think that this line of thinking is the one used in academia or among more intelligent feminists nowadays. At least in my political circles, it's broadly rejected.

The second paragraph excellent and well said.
this is a very very important thing.
society needs much more work in this area.
work in progress.

Posted by dino27 on 10/8/2020 3:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 10/8/2020 3:15:00 PM (view original):
how many times did Pence keep talking over the moderator when she said his time was up? It seemed like just about every question.

I agree. That’s what I saw and we all saw it.

blue hair fly on head.
now exposing his fly during the debate was sexist.

I don't understand why they don't just let the moderator turn off the microphone if a candidate goes over his/her allotted time.

Posted by wylie715 on 10/8/2020 6:32:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dino27 on 10/8/2020 3:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 10/8/2020 3:15:00 PM (view original):
how many times did Pence keep talking over the moderator when she said his time was up? It seemed like just about every question.

I agree. That’s what I saw and we all saw it.

blue hair fly on head.
now exposing his fly during the debate was sexist.

I don't understand why they don't just let the moderator turn off the microphone if a candidate goes over his/her allotted time.

Rather than give "power" to the moderator, just put the whole microphone on a timer (kinda like we do with kids on the internet)... Once your time is up, the damn thing shuts off. Same with the response/rebuttal time.

Save everyone some hand-wringing over "fairness".

that would work too, but isn't the role of the moderator to moderate and make sure everyone is following the rules. So far in both debates, the moderator has been useless and might as well have not been there.

Posted by wylie715 on 10/8/2020 7:09:00 PM (view original):
that would work too, but isn't the role of the moderator to moderate and make sure everyone is following the rules. So far in both debates, the moderator has been useless and might as well have not been there.

Yeah, but giving the "mute" button to the moderator assumes that the moderator is impartial and doesn't have their own agenda (which could be political, personal, or fame-seeking). Which we know isn't true...

Kick out a person if they interrupt a person twice and let the remaining person answer the qustions

or mute the person not answering a question

Now we’re gonna blame the moderator if he has the off button and say it’s an agenda? Man are you overthinking this. It’s a mic. You get 2 minutes. It shuts off after 2 minutes. The timer idea is perfect for even the paranoid like toddcommish. Or maybe they can hire an unemployed soundguy to do it. It’d be the FIRST thing anybody has done for anyone involved in the music/sound production industry.

Posted by laramiebob on 10/8/2020 11:38:00 AM (view original):
Pence is soulless, mindless, witless. A true bobbleheaded sycophant to the Party and the power it wields!

Yeah, but flies like him.

It's the stench. Flies dig rank odor.
Under that white helmet there is rot.
Decay. A giant P.O.S. on a torso.
Thus, the fly.