possible too - maybe even probable...i think it's probably a combination of a few factors...i'm always surprised by people who refuse to believe the quality of the product is NOT the issue or at least part of the issue...

Quote: Originally posted by jjboogie on 7/16/2009possible too - maybe even probable...i think it's probably a combination of a few factors...i'm always surprised by people who refuse to believe the quality of the product is NOT the issue or at least part of the issue...

'Quality of the product' does not equal 'potential'.

I because of the former, not the latter.

if mully said, "Quality of the Product killed DIII" you would agree more so than if he just says potential then?

personally, as i mentioned, i think it's at least 2-3 different factors...but DIII specifically i think suffered the worst from potential and the numbers bear that out at least as PART of the reason

FWIW - i for the same reason you did, overall quality of the product blows right now and did before potential...it just got a lot worse i felt...

Potential is undoubtedly a big factor in the D3 numbers, although certainly not the only factor. I personally know many coaches that gave up D3 due mostly to potential, including me.

FREEHD is also clearly a big factor, but what nobody has mentioned is that the FREEHD numbers and potential/FSS are linked.

When potential/FSS was introduced last November, the number of FREEHD teams went through the roof. Whether that was due to people using FREEHD to scout for their other teams, or just people wanting to try out the new feature, I can't say. It was probably both.

There was FREEHD for at least 6-months before potential was introduced. But in my D3 conferences in Knight and Tark, we consistently had 5-7 humans every season. 3-4 of those were long-term D3 coaches, with another 2-3 either FREEHD newbies, or guys who stayed a couple seasons and then moved up.

When potential was introduced, both conferences went from about 50% SIMAI to about 10% SIMAI (10-11 humans). Those 5 or 6 new humans who showed up were all FREEHD, and very few of the teams were actively managed.

Now that FREEHD has ended, both of my old D3 conferences are down to just two humans.

It's not just that the numbers have declined off of their artifical FREEHD peak, they are way down from where they were a year ago. This is blatently obvious to anyone who actively coached in D3 a year ago.

FREEHD was only a problem BECAUSE of FSS. Before that, there were a few people who abused it, but not many. It was a good way of getting people introduced to the game.

There are undoubtedly many factors involved in the decline of humans in D3, including the sorry state of the economy, but unhappiness with "potential" is certainly one of the biggest.

How dare you introduce logic into this discussion!!

I look at these recruits available in D3 and I am disgusted. My 2 cents: the game isn't as fun as it used to be. Maybe it's because I'm losing. Maybe it's because everyday I get an email saying that so-and-so can no longer improve in a skill. I know a lot of dinosaurs that can no longer win. Sure, maybe we can't "adjust to potential." But the fact remains, potential has made this game uninteresting to me and others. I'm barely interested in recruiting now, back in "the day," there was plenty of excitement surrounding recruiting (even when I sucked prior to success, mind you).

Remember when conferences were filled with humans? Remember when you would have an idea about the skills of a player in 4 years? We've had potential for more than 4 seasons now, and there are still some monster teams. WTF, how come I have juniors in the 400's still?? I was smart enough to recruit players with average and/or high potential skills. Then I get this one recruit I'm stoked about that is now rated in the 700's (with 97 athleticism). Unfortunately, it appears that he can't even wipe his own *** - he's mediocre at best.

It seems like a lost cause. We used to have a chance in the midwest - our talented players have gone the way of capitalism. (yeah, added politics pot shot, bite me.)

My rant is over. Clearly there are some fans of potential - GREAT! But for me, potential is crappy. Which is sad, be cause I was excited for the change.

Quote: Originally Posted By tonesgang on 7/17/2009
I look at these recruits available in D3 and I am disgusted. My 2 cents: the game isn't as fun as it used to be. Maybe it's because I'm losing. Maybe it's because everyday I get an email saying that so-and-so can no longer improve in a skill. I know a lot of dinosaurs that can no longer win. Sure, maybe we can't "adjust to potential." But the fact remains, potential has made this game uninteresting to me and others. I'm barely interested in recruiting now, back in "the day," there was plenty of excitement surrounding recruiting (even when I sucked prior to success, mind you).

Remember when conferences were filled with humans? Remember when you would have an idea about the skills of a player in 4 years? We've had potential for more than 4 seasons now, and there are still some monster teams. WTF, how come I have juniors in the 400's still?? I was smart enough to recruit players with average and/or high potential skills. Then I get this one recruit I'm stoked about that is now rated in the 700's (with 97 athleticism). Unfortunately, it appears that he can't even wipe his own *** - he's mediocre at best.

It seems like a lost cause. We used to have a chance in the midwest - our talented players have gone the way of capitalism. (yeah, added politics pot shot, bite me.)

My rant is over. Clearly there are some fans of potential - GREAT! But for me, potential is crappy. Which is sad, be cause I was excited for the change.

LOL, you made me chuckle TonesG, thanks

The continual slow death of HD. For the 2nd year in a row, over half the Smith World is empty.

Smith
DIV III - Total teams =	384
Season	SIMS	%	Change	%
17	161	41.9%
36	82	21.4%	(48)	-12.5%
37	231	60.2%	149	38.8%
38	256	66.7%	25	6.5%
DIV II - Total teams =	276
Season	SIMS	%	Change	%
17	63	22.8%
36	117	42.4%	9	3.3%
37	113	40.9%	(4)	-1.4%
38	127	46.0%	14	5.1%
DIV I - Total teams =	324
Season	SIMS	%	Change	%
17	138	42.6%
36	142	43.8%	0	0.0%
37	155	47.8%	13	4.0%
38	152	46.9%	(3)	-0.9%
Total World #1 =	984
Season	SIMS	%	Change	%
* 17	362	36.8%	(1st year)
36	341	34.7%	(39)	-4.0%
37	499	50.7%	158	16.1%
38	535	54.4%	36	3.7%

Quote: Originally posted by tonesgang on 7/17/2009I look at these recruits available in D3 and I am disgusted.  My 2 cents: the game isn't as fun as it used to be.  Maybe it's because I'm losing.  Maybe it's because everyday I get an email saying that so-and-so can no longer improve in a skill.  I know a lot of dinosaurs that can no longer win.  Sure, maybe we can't "adjust to potential."  But the fact remains, potential has made this game uninteresting to me and others.  I'm barely interested in recruiting now, back in "the day," there was plenty of excitement surrounding recruiting (even when I sucked prior to success, mind you).Remember when conferences were filled with humans?  Remember when you would have an idea about the skills of a player in 4 years?  We've had potential for more than 4 seasons now, and there are still some monster teams.  WTF, how come I have juniors in the 400's still??  I was smart enough to recruit players with average and/or high potential skills.  Then I get this one recruit I'm stoked about that is now rated in the 700's (with 97 athleticism).  Unfortunately, it appears that he can't even wipe his own *** - he's mediocre at best.It seems like a lost cause.  We used to have a chance in the midwest - our talented players have gone the way of capitalism.  (yeah, added politics pot shot, bite me.)My rant is over.  Clearly there are some fans of potential - GREAT!  But for me, potential is crappy.  Which is sad, be cause I was excited for the change.

Potential is more challenging and I think a lot of people don't like that the game is not as easy anymore. Every good team had nothing but super stars and every team looked exactly the same. Potential added more strategy by making teams differently (other then in div I where it is 100% lame still.)



You now only have a couple stars and then role players. You may end up with a dominating rebounder (90+) but only 45 LP or something. Players have strengths but also have weaknesses. You need to recruit around this. Under the old system there is almost no way this happens because every rating went up at least 40+ it self without even trying.



You have to recruit to build your team how you want them now. Any decent coach could recruit a team full of average talent and build them into any beast you want them too. Everyone built them the same way, and there was no reason to game plan or even look at the teams your playing because you already knew what the teams looked like.




Overall, potential needs a lot of work still but its getting better and better. If you want 12 all americans like you could under the old system, then div I with all maxed out areas is your answer. If you want a game that has teams built different ways where you actually need to adjust your line ups to cover up weaknesses or adjust to your strengths (maybe scorers, maybe defenders - whatever) then div III or div II is the way to go.



The end result of potential makes it much more realistic IMO the way teams are built. Other then a few great teams, most teams only have a couple super studs and then a bunch of role players. This is how the game should have been in the first play IMO. Coaches don't like the fact that they need to decide what key areas they want for there team and build around there strength/weaknesses. They liked how they could just punch in random numbers in all there cores and have them end at 80+ in every core.




I enjoyed the 'whatif' unrealistic style of the game like the rest of us, but it did get silly after a while. Teams just reloaded and you could just pull a guy out of your *** and he'd be a beast. It now takes time and a strat and a little bit of luck to build your team into what you want, or what you hope to have. If you want a game that takes no strategy then go play tic tac toe or something.

... well apparently a lot of ex WIS coaches are now playing tic tac toe

Not because of potential though. The posts I've read from people who wanted to quit were not due to potential. Most were div I coaches and potential does not really change anything at that level. They were maxed out before and they still are maxed out now. Div II and div III are the main ones changed. Div III is empty because FreeHD ended and people don't want to play against sim AI, so it won't fill up. Oregon is my dream school, but if I had the choice of playing there but every season even on a good year only has 3 humans I would pass on it. This is what is going down in div III right now. Until they fill it up with FreeHD or change the names from Sim AI to make it look like humans are in it div III will not fill back up.

You keep believing that furry.

The game has always had vet coaches quitting. But before potential, the game would attract new coaches in DIII who would play a few seasons and work their way up.

Post potential, these coaches are quitting after one season. You are entitled to your opinion, but I think it's the minority opinion.

Thats because there was FreeHD, and ads such as myspace to bring in new coaches. There are not new coaches signing up even playing that 1 season and then quitting. If new coaches came, I doubt they would stick around though. Not because of potential, but because if they ask any question on div III everyone would say how bad it is and all that on the forums and the confs all are empty so they can't get help there like they could have in past years.

Furry, there's no doubt FREEHD is a factor, but you can't say potential isn't one too. A lot of long-term coaches quit because of potential.

As a D2/D3 coach, you know darn well that the number of FREEHD coaches doubled when they introduced potential. In fact, FSS cheating is probably why they got rid of FREEHD. The difference in the number of coaches between last summer and now is pretty stunning, and it's more due to potential than to FREEHD.

Quote: Originally Posted By furry_nipps on 7/29/2009Not because of potential though. The posts I've read from people who wanted to quit were not due to potential. Most were div I coaches and potential does not really change anything at that level. They were maxed out before and they still are maxed out now. Div II and div III are the main ones changed. Div III is empty because FreeHD ended and people don't want to play against sim AI, so it won't fill up.

Unfortunately furry, that's just not the reality.

DIII was filled or nearly filled for quite a long time before Free HD was ever in the picture. Many coaches have talked openly in the forums about how FSS/potential simply don't work well at DIII, both because you don't have ample cash to do a meaningful amount of scouting, and because so many players are low potential and/or max out quickly in many categories. It's a major factor.

Dimishing of rewards points also played a role in the demise of DIII. Not only did it drive out a large percentage of the veteran coaches, but it also had an unintended cosequence that WIS didn't anticipate: Those coaches added a lot of texture to the DIII worlds by guiding the newbies, teaching them things on the CC, etc. etc. With most of them gone, DIII lost a ton.