The cap will go up a couple mil, pluswhise there will be about an extra 4M to spend in bonus money that likely won't be won....Norris, Conn Smythe, All-Star selection.  We're not in the best shape, but it's far better than what Tallon left us. 

Posted by andru2797 on 12/31/2010 1:53:00 PM (view original):
juskay, I'll take Sharp over any TWO of the three you mentioned. You're a smart enough hockey fan to know that +/- is a joke of a stat. Sharp has been one of the most consistent scorers in the entire league this season. He can also play center and wing, win faceoffs, play the point on the power play as well as up front and kill penalties. Name one guy the Hawks traded that would have brought all that to the team plus leadership.

We're not dumb. I think every Hawks fan knew that injuries to key players would hurt, but what team is immune to that? The Habs lose Markov and suddenly their defense looks like swiss cheese. The Devils lost Zach Parise and we all know how that's turning out. The Islanders would have a much improved team this season if they had Mark Streit and Kyle Okposo in their lineup. What about the Kings' early struggles without Drew Doughty?

As I've said many, MANY times, the Hawks were so much deeper than anyone else last season, that losing that depth simply brings them back to the pack. That doesn't mean the team was gutted. I'll take a core of Toews, Kane, Hossa, Sharp, Keith & Seabrook to build around over any other core in the league.

And Campbell's contract isn't nearly as much of a crutch as Luongo's is.

Plus minus is over rated, I wanted to see what you thought.

You should have pointed out the SHARP has 5 game winning goals as that is one of the most important stats to most fans.

2 shorty goals too!!

I'd make fun of the hawks losing to anahiem last night --- but my flyers lost to them a few days ago by a lot more than 1 goal.

This is how I see the roster for next season shaking out (barring any major trades/injuries). I'm afcorse taking a guess on UFA/RFA salaries based on performance to date.

Forwards:

Kane - $6,300,000
Toews - $6,300,000
Hossa - $5,275,000
Sharp - $3,900,000
Bolland - $3,375,000
Bickell - $541,666
Brouwer - $2,500,000
Stalberg - $1,500,000
Skille - $1,500,000
Dowell - $700,000
Kopecky - $2,000,000
Morin - $750,000
Smith - $590,000

2011-12 UFAs Pisani (not returning), Johnson (not returning)

Defensemen:

Campbell - $7,142,875
Duncan - $5,538,462
Seabrook - $4,500,000
Hjalmarrson - $3,500,000
Scott - $512,500
Hendry - $750,000
Leddy - $900,000

2011-12 UFAs Boynton (not returning), Cullimore (not returning)

Goalies:

2011-12 RFAs include Crawford (1.5-2 million)
2011-12 UFAs include Turco (not returning)

That's a total of roughly 55.5 million, which leaves us about 6 million to sign another goaltender and maybe a depth player or two...where exactly is the problem?

andru - you are off on a few players.

Leddy - $1,116,666
morin - $916,666
smith - $812,500

Not a big difference in the grand scheme of your argument though. I was thinking they bring Kyle Beach up at $1,170,833. Again - not a big deal in the grand scheme of your argument.

To me it's not about can they sign "these" guys.... Its can they beef up their depth? Players like Lidstrom, Leino, Kaberle, Arnott, Parise, Vokoun and a ton of other players are UFAs next season and I'm guessing Nashville, StL, Detroit, and CBJ will be looking to acquire more in FA.... the hawks most likely will be staying put based on your (and my) assumption.... and as the hawks are now, I'm not sure that is enough. I would argue that the hawks lack depth NOW, so re-signing these guys will still mean the team lacks depth. maybe these guys the hawks have now will "grow as a team", maybe not, or maybe they just don't grow quick enough to make an impact before big contracts like Patrick Sharp come up in 2012-2013 (only 2 seasons from now). dunno ;)

Afcorse I'm working on the assumption (as should the team) that guys like Morin, Skille, Stalberg, Brouwer, Bolland, Leddy and Bickell continue to grow and become those depth players next season. That's why I see no reason for any big acquisition. I don't see the need to replace any of our top 5 forwards (maybe we need 1 more top 6) or top 4 defensemen, so the Parise's of the 2011 UFA class are not even on the Hawks radar.

the only real need may be in goal, and I think that there's enough cap room to fill that need and then some.

If that's the case then I agree... all they need is a goalie and they will be fine. If their depth does not greatly improve throughout this year and next then the hawks are in trouble of not being an annual threat for the cup. The other teams in the div/conf ate getting pretty good. I'd still prefer they acquire more depth that are proven rather than gamble on youth. In hockey, players usually take years to develop ... moreso than any other sport imo.

You hit the nail on the head when you said they are rushing these guys and I hope it works (since i attend a few games a year) .... however, I do think you are over-valuing your core group of players.


Kane, Toews, & Sharp are more similar to I'd say an above avg young core like the flyers (Richards, Carter, Giroux) than other 'elite' young cores like Pitts with Crosby and Malkin or the Caps with Ovechkin, Backstrom, Semin.    Hawks fans tend to act like Kane is the best player in the game.  He's scored 88 points as a career high.  He is no Steven Stamkos.  Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, and Backstrom have been scoring 100 points a season since they were 20 years old - so the oh, Kane and Toews are young thing is just an excuse.  Toews has never broke 70 points in a season.  I think they are great players - but they are not great enough to carry the bare cupboard which is the tail end of their roster.  To win with Kaner, Toews, and Sharp the Hawks need to surround them with a ton of quality depth (like last season).  The penguins have no depth this season and look what they have been able to do.  If the Flyers lost the depth they have like the hawks did in the offseason there is no way Giroux, Carter, and Richie carry the team.  The hawks are more like a zero depth flyers than a zero depth Pittsburgh imo.  I don't think the hawks depth will turn into quality depth anytime in the next 1-2 seasons if they keep the team as is.  

Hossa and Keith are also part of the Hawks core.  They're as good as any core in the league, especially when you weigh in the intangibles like Toews' leadership.

Posted by mudbone1969 on 1/3/2011 7:20:00 PM (view original):
Hossa and Keith are also part of the Hawks core.  They're as good as any core in the league, especially when you weigh in the intangibles like Toews' leadership.

I was keeping it simple and sticking with the young core players and to offense since 4 of the 5 core mentioned were Forwards... but throw in Keith, Campbell (whose contract is killing them), Seabrook and Hjalmarrson - what has the hawks Defense done this year?  not much.

The penguins have 6 defensemen under 30 yrs old, all signed for more than 2 years (and we know they play great defensively as a team - just check out the standings) + Fluery in goal and Staal locked up long-term to go with Malkin/Crosby.

The caps would include young players on D like Mike Green, Carlson, Alzner and Schultz all under 25 years old and all 1st round picks + two 22 year old goalies with a combined 21 wins and .910+ save% to go with forwards Ovechkin, Backstrom, Semin.  

Toews leadership imo is even with Mike Richards leadership - I watch almost all the flyers games and a ton of Hawks games.  They are eerily similar players.  Both 2 way players, both leaders, both consistent, both have heart, both similar stats - but I'm not saying Richards is a best in the league superstar (like Stamkos, Crosby, Backstrom at center) because he has intangibles  - Hawks fans tend to think Toews is.  Crosby/Malkin can carry a team on their own.... Kane/Toews can't.... Richards/Carter can't.  Pittsburgh might even have a worse supporting cast on offense than the hawks... I'm stretching to even mention Jordan Staal as a young core player.


btw muddy - welcome to the party.  I noticed you are now saying they are 'as good as any core in the league'.  At least I've knocked you down from the 'better than any core in the league' perch you were on ;)

Truly, none of the hawks core players have ever scored 100 points in a season.... lots of teams with great cores can at least claim one player has.  wait - I'm mistaken - Hossa did hit exactly 100 points back when he was 27 ;)  The flyers don't have any 100 point players either... but I'm not claiming they have a great core - just great depth - like the hawks had last season when they won the cup.

 

Well, to be fair I never claimed Kane & Toews are better than other teams' top players. I claimed, with good reason I believe, that the core GROUP of Toews, Kane, Hossa, Sharp, Keith and Seabrook are as good as any other core. If we take the top 4 forwards and 2 defensemen of any other team, I think the Hawks' GROUP stacks up favorably against any of them. Whether they are better is subjective I suppose, but they are AT LEAST comparable.

Chicago - Toews, Kane, Hossa, Sharp, Keith, Seabrook
Pittsburgh - Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Kunitz, Letang, Goligoski
Washington - Ovechkin, Backstrom, Semin, Laich, Green, Carlson
Philadelphia - Richards, Carter, Giroux, Briere, Pronger, Timonen
Detroit - Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Filppula/Holmstrom, Lidstrom, Rafalski

Also, the goal with which any GM builds his team (except Brian Burke and Darryl Sutter, lol!) is to win the Cup, and players have always been defined as GREAT by their playoff prowess. Both Jonathan Toews and Mike Richards are elite players because of this. Sidney Crosby is the best player in the NHL because he's the total package. I haven't seen Ovechkin carry his team anywhere yet. Same for Stamkos. Putting up points is something alot of players have done well over their careers (remember Craig Janney?). Winning is something very few accomplish.

In addition, the example of Pittsburgh and Washington isn't really fair either, because I did mention that "I don't think there's a team that can match that without having guys in that group on entry-level deals". The Penguins are just as handcuffed as the Hawks are cap wise if you add the top 6 salaries of the team, and so are the Caps. I think the Hawks' spending on their top 4 forwards and top 2 defensemen is just as well, if not better spent than most teams, even with Campbell being overpaid.

Top 6 salaries (not counting goaltenders, approximate numbers)

Penguins: 34.1 million (Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Kunitz, Michalek, Martin)
Blackhawks: 34.3 (Toews, Kane, Sharp, Hossa, Keith, Campbell)
Flyers: 32.4 (Richards, Briere, Carter, Hartnell, Pronger, Timonen)
Red Wings: 31.8 (Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Filppula, Lidstrom, Rafalski)
Capitals: 33.8 (Ovechkin, Backstrom, Semin, Knuble, Green, Poti)

fair enough.  They do belong in that group.  They are a top 5 core.  I was mostly being argumentative since it was a slow day and I learn a bit looking up the stats, contracts, etc.  I'd personally swap out my flyers core for the Penguins any day despite how much I loathe them all ;)

Last nights Hawks game was fast paced and hard hitting.  I don't think I've ever seen so many slapshots (from both teams) denied by the goalposts in a single game.

Missed the game last night, but it was a sorely needed win.  We need to stay healthy for a good few months to right this ship.

How great would a playoff series between the Kings and Hawks be? I've thoroughly enjoyed every game sor far...two very fast, young, highly skilled teams.