Posted by antonsirius on 9/1/2011 11:44:00 AM (view original):
I'm just wondering how "we" can be done when "we" (as in Mike and I) hadn't started anything, since I wasn't talking to him. You'd almost think he was desperate for my attention or something.

Maybe he was using the royal "we".

So let me ask you WG...Is this just a linguistic experiment for you?

You have asked us to prove a few things. Are you just asking in hopes we cant prove it or do you actually believe that there isnt a problem with schools?

I think we spend too much right now on education, oppose or agree?

NOT NEARLY ENOUGH

INSTEAD OF SPENDING MORE THAN 17 OTHER TOP MILITARIES COMBINED

WE SHOULD PUT FORTH THE SAME EFFORT TOWARDS EDUCATION+ HEALTH CARE

We spend more per capita that almost every other nation in the world.

We need to spend less, but spend it smart!

Posted by swamphawk22 on 9/1/2011 8:10:00 PM (view original):
So let me ask you WG...Is this just a linguistic experiment for you?

You have asked us to prove a few things. Are you just asking in hopes we cant prove it or do you actually believe that there isnt a problem with schools?

I think we spend too much right now on education, oppose or agree?

This isn't a linguistic exercise for me. I've got two school-aged children so I'm a lot more heavily invested in the issue than somebody who is childless.

The system is not perfect. It never was. Your grammar and punctuation are proof that some problems existed in your classroom. And you aren't the only one who spends a fair amount of time criticizing today's goals who displays a dodgy grasp of the basics that you tout for today's classroom. There's plenty of politicians on both sides of the aisle who've demonstrated varying degrees of illiteracy in math, language, history and science. 

Even with the problems in today's classroom, some kids will continue to thrive and get a good education. That's because they've got parents who are actively involved in their education. They are making sure homework is getting done rather than plunking them in front of the television. If their child has behaviour or learning disabilities, they are making sure they get the help they need.

Some children do not have parents who have the desire or time to commit to their child's education. That's not a problem that can be solved by the panceas spouted by the bullshit experts that appear on television talk shows. That problem existed 100 years ago as surely as it exists today.

Posted by swamphawk22 on 9/1/2011 8:20:00 PM (view original):
We spend more per capita that almost every other nation in the world.

We need to spend less, but spend it smart!

No you don't. 

According to the OECD, the USA isn't even in the top 10. In 2007, you were well behind Denmark and Scandinavian nations. France, Belgium, Malta, Cyprus, the Netherlands, Austria, Ireland, Israel and New Zealand are some of the nations who spend more per student than the United States. And that's under the "education president." God knows what it is now. Because we all know, things have gone to dogshit since Bush left office, right?

You need to get your facts straight.

http://www.oecd.org/document/24/0,3746,en_2649_37455_43586328_1_1_1_37455,00.html

Not sure where you  are getting your data.

You have to click on how much is spent per student. Then click on table b1-1a. You will see many differnt listings and we are 1st or second in all of them.

One of us needs to get their facts straight.

Posted by swamphawk22 on 9/2/2011 2:02:00 AM (view original):
http://www.oecd.org/document/24/0,3746,en_2649_37455_43586328_1_1_1_37455,00.html

Not sure where you  are getting your data.

You have to click on how much is spent per student. Then click on table b1-1a. You will see many differnt listings and we are 1st or second in all of them.

One of us needs to get their facts straight.

www.oecd.org/dataoecd/45/48/37864432.pdf

To clarify, we're talking about public spending on education in the classroom. This survey appears to take into account private spending in the USA as well, which would tend to inflate the numbers. The other factor that inflates education spending in the United States and Canada (whose figures are not listed) is the cost of subsidizing transportation.

You need to think about this a little deeper rather than troll around looking for opinions and facts that try to support your dumbassed theories about education.

You chart is based on percentage of GDP. That isnt a realistic analysis.

Why would it take more to educate a kid in a less productive country. In reality it is probably cheaper in more developed countries.

My chart just showed what we spend per pupil.

Posted by swamphawk22 on 9/2/2011 10:21:00 PM (view original):
You chart is based on percentage of GDP. That isnt a realistic analysis.

Why would it take more to educate a kid in a less productive country. In reality it is probably cheaper in more developed countries.

My chart just showed what we spend per pupil.

I'm interested in seeing statistics that look at public dollars spend in the classroom. Education spending as a percentage of a country's GDP is the most common benchmark used in this area because it reflects the priority placed on it by governments. I'm not advocating governments spend more money on education. 

Expectations on the school system have changed, at least from when I attended school. Most of them are driven by parents and societal trends rather than any political agenda.

One of the biggest changes was the integration of special needs students into the regular classroom stream. This was pushed by parent groups who didn't want their children marginalized. That reform has created some real challenges for teachers. My wife probably spends 80 per cent of her time dealing with behaviour issues from 10 per cent of her students. I suspect she isn't alone in dealing with this.

As a result, more responsibility is loaded on to parents to help their children with homework (which starts in Grade 2 in our school district) and reading with them. Some parents embrace this. Others resent it. Still others are too overwhelmed with the stresses of their own day to help out. Want to guess which children get left behind?

I could go and list 10 other serious challenges being faced by today's schools. I could do this because I'm very interested in trying to solve the problem as opposed to grinding an axe. There are no simple answers or magic bullets, either, despite whatever bullshit-spouting, axe-grinding halfwit tells Rush, Beck or O'Reilly.

I've yet to see any proof from you to support your claims about schools failing to teach the basics. About all you've brought to this debate is some strong opinions based on tiresome stereotypes gleaned second-hand from "experts" of dubious standing as well as atrocious grammar, spelling and punctuation. It's both funny and painful for me to see you torture the English language while complaining about the declining standards in American education and calling for a return to the "basics" that you failed to master yourself. I'm not sure whether that irony is lost on you.

Response to WG from his last education post.

I think comparing the money spent per pupil by GDP is illogical. Why do we need to spend more than Japan and Gearmany because our GDP is higher? Is there some reason that our kids cost more? I dont think there is any standard that would make us do that. Seems like a way to make it look like we are cheap. Remember as a percentage of the GDP we spend less on our military than Chad.

We spend more per kid that almost any other nation, or in some cases more that any nation!

For that huge price tag we get very little.

The issue with challenged kids sounds like a problem. This is also an example of the lefts touchy feely impact on education that is hurting our kids.

Let me ask you about basics. Do you think kids today are exposed to a wider range of "Electives" than kids in 1957 were?

It is hard for me to prove this exists, other than someone saying it is happening. No one produces stats on this.

And so many of the "Experts" on education have a horse in the race. Like you.

  My point of view, regardless of what i thought before is : Public money was used to bail out the rich from their own excesses. We are now in a situation where public debt is out of control.

     For me, it clearly can't be resolved by spending cuts alone.

  We can see why in unemployment numbers this month : While yje private sector created 17,000 jobs ( which, considering their huge oprofits isn't much ) but the public sector lost 17,000 . And it is just a beginning.

    Since 1980, the 1 % wealthiest people took in 80 % of the new wealth created in the uSA. Which means, that , in constant dollars, most people are poorer now than they were 30 years ago. When billionaires are asking the governement to raise their taxes, you know something's wrong. You know the rich knows they are not doing their fair share.

    So, yes, let's ask the rich to contribute more to help solve a debt problem they are , in a substantial way, responsible for.

Here's a point to illustrate why American spending on education doesn't necessarily mean it's going towards teach kids. My brother has lived in Tokyo for the past 15 years and has two kids. His oldest child is just about to start school. They do not have subsidized bussing or hot lunch programs. That would be an example of dollars being spent in North American education that might not be spent in other countries. Those are expectations in North American education that don't exist in many other parts of the world. I'd also point out the school year is a lot longer in Japan than in Canada or the United States -- I believe it's something on the order of 50 extra days. Like many Japanese children, my niece and nephew will also attend "English" school for four hours a week, something his parents pay for themselves. 

My second point about spending also has something to do with a wider trend. The grammar school I attended now sits empty even though the building is in fine shape. That's because there's no school-aged kids in the neighbourhood. A lot of people have moved out to new developments farther away from existing infrastructure and demand nearby schools and other services. Building those replacement buildings account for a lot of spending on education that certainly doesn't exist in Tokyo or Seoul or Amsterdam or London or Munich or anywhere else in the world. That spending is driven by flight to the suburbs and exurb developments rather than a "leftist" agenda.

Children do get exposed to more electives and some of them are fantastic tools to help with learning the basics. There is a very large body of work on how music can have a profound impact on a child's math scores. Children are assigned a lot more homework than when I attended grammar/elementary school in the 1970s. This is almost exclusively focused on "the basics" and I suspect it's evolved that way based on the challenges faced by teachers in today's classrooms. If their parents are engaged, they receive a very thorough grounding in "the basics." If they are not, that child will suffer.

As a conservative, I'm going to suggest the accountability for education doesn't just rest with the teacher. Some parents don't share that viewpoint and see the grades on the report card as a reflection on the teacher's work rather than with their child or themselves. That's something that's changed since I went to school.

I'm not going to defend today's teachers or classrooms as perfect and there needs to be some improvements in the system. In our community, we have two publicly-funded systems -- public and Catholic -- and dollars follow the student. I support the idea of vouchers because I think competition will force schools to improve.

But I don't hold myself out as an expert with easy answers, Swamp, because a lot of what ails education extends well beyond the baliwick of the schools or the politicians in charge of them.

I'm trying to find an article about a principal at an inner-city school in Baltimore who caused some controversy a few years back when she decided to spend her budget "buying" the curriculum of an elite boarding school. She also adopted more prep schools norms -- including uniforms and strict discipline for both teachers and students. Teachers and students who didn't buy in were transferred to other schools. The test scores for her students were off the charts. Rather than congratulating her, the school board forced her to resign after she clashed a high-priced consultant hired by the board to bring in "reforms" across the district. Unfortunately, this article was in magazine that I cannot find on line. If I do, I'll post it in this thread.