LOL. Typical BL. When facts start to muck up his agenda, he goes personal attack.

Remain ignorant, BL. Maybe you and Benis can become BFF in Ignorantland. Good on you for finding your ride or die.

Posted by tecwrg on 8/14/2017 3:46:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 8/14/2017 1:14:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/14/2017 1:08:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 8/14/2017 1:05:00 PM (view original):
I think Mike watched Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter too many times. Reality seems just outside his grasp.

Actually just fascinated that a country could tear itself apart when I was relatively young. Read a lot on the CW, specifically, and American History in general. It's not as simple as most think it is.

Lincoln freed slaves is the consensus. But wrong.

Freedom for the slaves was an outcome that resulted from the civil war though, so the consensus is correct.

But Lincoln didn't free them. Nor did he want to.

Facts suck when they don't support your argument, don't they?

Mike said this on on Page 2 of this thread

"We know Lincoln wanted to end slavery. SC gave him reason to start a war. He took it. That's "orchestration"."

Tec says Lincoln didn't want to end Slavery while Mike says he did. Which is it guys?

Sort of depends on which Lincoln. Pre-presidency Lincoln was against slavery but ending it was not on his agenda. Mid-war Lincoln used ending slavery as a reason to continue fighting.

If memory serves me correctly, the North was tired of fighting after a couple of years. Lincoln needed more than "They tried to secede" as a reason to continue fighting. After all, Northern boys were dying too. They were just fighting because Lincoln said to. The South was trying to preserve their economy, their way of life. They would fight til they couldn't. I don't know that Lincoln ever said "We must end slavery" but ending slavery was a motivating factor for the North to keep fighting.

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/15/2017 8:36:00 AM (view original):
Sort of depends on which Lincoln. Pre-presidency Lincoln was against slavery but ending it was not on his agenda. Mid-war Lincoln used ending slavery as a reason to continue fighting.

Okay... but you do see how what you're saying is contradictory right?

You said first that he wanted to end slavery so he provoked the South into fighting and starting the Civil War. aka orchestrated.

Now you're saying that he only used Slavery as a propaganda tool after the war had been going on for 2 years.

So which one is it?

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/14/2017 4:50:00 PM (view original):
As Americans maybe we need to ask ourselves why we allowed the terrible injustice of slavery to lead to such a destructive war when every other nation except Haiti managed to resolve this issue without horrendous violence.

the anwer is because we were Americans

peace weren't our way

Meh, not so much. We don't KNOW what was in Lincoln's head. His lifelong objection to slavery would lead one to believe he would like to end it or wouldn't mind seeing it ended. Politically speaking, at the time of the elections, it would have been detrimental to say "I want to end slavery." However, after the election, it didn't take 7 Southern states to secede over expected economic doom(which includes the use of slaves). It wasn't just Lincoln, the Republican party won overwhelmingly, but the South knew something was afoot. Not being privy to "behind closed doors" discussions, I think they felt Congress/Lincoln would push to abolish slavery and continue the tariffs. That, effectively, would have destroyed Southern economy to the benefit of the North.

Do I KNOW Lincoln wanted to end slavery BEFORE taking office? No, I do not. But many believe he did. I suspect it was on his agenda. Secession gave him reason to begin the process without stating it.

Posted by bagchucker on 8/15/2017 9:19:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/14/2017 4:50:00 PM (view original):
As Americans maybe we need to ask ourselves why we allowed the terrible injustice of slavery to lead to such a destructive war when every other nation except Haiti managed to resolve this issue without horrendous violence.

the anwer is because we were Americans

peace weren't our way

Silence, frenchy!

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/15/2017 9:21:00 AM (view original):
Meh, not so much. We don't KNOW what was in Lincoln's head. His lifelong objection to slavery would lead one to believe he would like to end it or wouldn't mind seeing it ended. Politically speaking, at the time of the elections, it would have been detrimental to say "I want to end slavery." However, after the election, it didn't take 7 Southern states to secede over expected economic doom(which includes the use of slaves). It wasn't just Lincoln, the Republican party won overwhelmingly, but the South knew something was afoot. Not being privy to "behind closed doors" discussions, I think they felt Congress/Lincoln would push to abolish slavery and continue the tariffs. That, effectively, would have destroyed Southern economy to the benefit of the North.

Do I KNOW Lincoln wanted to end slavery BEFORE taking office? No, I do not. But many believe he did. I suspect it was on his agenda. Secession gave him reason to begin the process without stating it.

LOL, I love how you include slavery as a parenthetical. It was the primary driver of secession.

Okay so instead of

"We know Lincoln wanted to end slavery."

You should have said

"I think Lincoln wanted to end slavery and he may have started a war do it."

Posted by Benis on 8/15/2017 9:26:00 AM (view original):
Okay so instead of

"We know Lincoln wanted to end slavery."

You should have said

"I think Lincoln wanted to end slavery and he may have started a war do it."

I could have said a lot of things. Most here believe Lincoln ended slavery and he intended to. I'd have had to start with "Lincoln never stated he wanted to end slavery before the Civil War" and defend that first.

I took a shortcut to argue. Sue me.

But he did start a war that he decided to start before he took office. Negotiation was not part of his agenda. That's what I object to.

Posted by bad_luck on 8/15/2017 9:25:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/15/2017 9:21:00 AM (view original):
Meh, not so much. We don't KNOW what was in Lincoln's head. His lifelong objection to slavery would lead one to believe he would like to end it or wouldn't mind seeing it ended. Politically speaking, at the time of the elections, it would have been detrimental to say "I want to end slavery." However, after the election, it didn't take 7 Southern states to secede over expected economic doom(which includes the use of slaves). It wasn't just Lincoln, the Republican party won overwhelmingly, but the South knew something was afoot. Not being privy to "behind closed doors" discussions, I think they felt Congress/Lincoln would push to abolish slavery and continue the tariffs. That, effectively, would have destroyed Southern economy to the benefit of the North.

Do I KNOW Lincoln wanted to end slavery BEFORE taking office? No, I do not. But many believe he did. I suspect it was on his agenda. Secession gave him reason to begin the process without stating it.

LOL, I love how you include slavery as a parenthetical. It was the primary driver of secession.

Economic reasons. Read a book. Or open the link I posted. Educate yourself.

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/15/2017 9:31:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 8/15/2017 9:26:00 AM (view original):
Okay so instead of

"We know Lincoln wanted to end slavery."

You should have said

"I think Lincoln wanted to end slavery and he may have started a war do it."

I could have said a lot of things. Most here believe Lincoln ended slavery and he intended to. I'd have had to start with "Lincoln never stated he wanted to end slavery before the Civil War" and defend that first.

I took a shortcut to argue. Sue me.

But he did start a war that he decided to start before he took office. Negotiation was not part of his agenda. That's what I object to.

I'm not sure if most believed that. Maybe. I didn't and I know others in this thread didn't.

But that would have been a more interesting and productive conversation than throwing out inflammatory statements like "lincoln killed 600,000 Americans over property".

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/15/2017 9:32:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 8/15/2017 9:25:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/15/2017 9:21:00 AM (view original):
Meh, not so much. We don't KNOW what was in Lincoln's head. His lifelong objection to slavery would lead one to believe he would like to end it or wouldn't mind seeing it ended. Politically speaking, at the time of the elections, it would have been detrimental to say "I want to end slavery." However, after the election, it didn't take 7 Southern states to secede over expected economic doom(which includes the use of slaves). It wasn't just Lincoln, the Republican party won overwhelmingly, but the South knew something was afoot. Not being privy to "behind closed doors" discussions, I think they felt Congress/Lincoln would push to abolish slavery and continue the tariffs. That, effectively, would have destroyed Southern economy to the benefit of the North.

Do I KNOW Lincoln wanted to end slavery BEFORE taking office? No, I do not. But many believe he did. I suspect it was on his agenda. Secession gave him reason to begin the process without stating it.

LOL, I love how you include slavery as a parenthetical. It was the primary driver of secession.

Economic reasons. Read a book. Or open the link I posted. Educate yourself.

Slavery was the "economic reason."

Posted by Benis on 8/15/2017 9:35:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/15/2017 9:31:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 8/15/2017 9:26:00 AM (view original):
Okay so instead of

"We know Lincoln wanted to end slavery."

You should have said

"I think Lincoln wanted to end slavery and he may have started a war do it."

I could have said a lot of things. Most here believe Lincoln ended slavery and he intended to. I'd have had to start with "Lincoln never stated he wanted to end slavery before the Civil War" and defend that first.

I took a shortcut to argue. Sue me.

But he did start a war that he decided to start before he took office. Negotiation was not part of his agenda. That's what I object to.

I'm not sure if most believed that. Maybe. I didn't and I know others in this thread didn't.

But that would have been a more interesting and productive conversation than throwing out inflammatory statements like "lincoln killed 600,000 Americans over property".

Actually, you said the opposite of what happened and stated it as a fact. Saying you KNOW he wanted to end slavery because you "took a shortcut" is a pretty lame excuse for saying something that is incorrect.