Posted by MikeT23 on 6/10/2014 2:25:00 PM (view original):
Why don't we just have anyone making more than 400k write checks to people who don't make 400k?

I'll email Mark Cuban my home address now.  I'm sure he'll be good with that.

I think adjusting the tax system would probably be a more efficient way.

OR we could just go back to what worked very well for over 4 decades instead of pretending that it was a bad thing.

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/10/2014 2:28:00 PM (view original):
Let's just put this in a real situation.

You and a childhood friend go out for drinks.   You're making 30k selling hammers.   He invented Facebook.   Do you EXPECT him to pick up the tab? 

No.

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/10/2014 2:13:00 PM (view original):
I think the problem tec and I have(I know it's the problem I have) is that we're not fans of "They have more so they'll miss it less."   I'm not comfortable spending other people's money or deciding how much they'll miss it if I take it. 

As I said to burnsy, the guy making less than you assumes you'll miss it less also.   I drive the same roads, am protected by the same military, governed by the same clowns, etc, etc, as Bill Gates.  Why should I expect him to pay a higher percentage than me?

You can go ahead and not be a fan of that, but that's how it works.

The marginal value of income to an individual diminishes as they make more money. The first $50,000 you make is much more important to you than the 5th $50,000. If we have to collect taxes it's better to collect more from the higher income levels.

Posted by burnsy483 on 6/10/2014 2:30:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/10/2014 2:28:00 PM (view original):
Let's just put this in a real situation.

You and a childhood friend go out for drinks.   You're making 30k selling hammers.   He invented Facebook.   Do you EXPECT him to pick up the tab? 

No.

But you're comfortable telling strangers to "pick up the tax tab", right?

The middle class did well during those 40+ years.
There were far more middle to upper middle class families then also.
Never in the history of our country has the divide between poor and rich been so wide.
It is only continuing to widen, and there's no reason to think that somehow our system is better today than it was during those 40+ years.

Posted by tecwrg on 6/10/2014 2:07:00 PM (view original):
To paraphrase: "giving people free money is bad, because they'll just go and spend it".

LOL

Yeah, I'm not surprised you missed the point.

You give the prebate as a way to subsidize the tax on poor people but then they have to pay the sales tax when they spend the prebate, reducing its value.

More people.   And many of them are born into welfare-type enviroments.   How many rich CA have 6 kids?   How many backwoods WV or ghetto NY have 6 kids?

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/10/2014 2:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 6/10/2014 2:30:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/10/2014 2:28:00 PM (view original):
Let's just put this in a real situation.

You and a childhood friend go out for drinks.   You're making 30k selling hammers.   He invented Facebook.   Do you EXPECT him to pick up the tab? 

No.

But you're comfortable telling strangers to "pick up the tax tab", right?

Yea, he should be paying a higher tax rate than me. The childhood friend and his rich friends.

Posted by burnsy483 on 6/10/2014 2:34:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/10/2014 2:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 6/10/2014 2:30:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/10/2014 2:28:00 PM (view original):
Let's just put this in a real situation.

You and a childhood friend go out for drinks.   You're making 30k selling hammers.   He invented Facebook.   Do you EXPECT him to pick up the tab? 

No.

But you're comfortable telling strangers to "pick up the tax tab", right?

Yea, he should be paying a higher tax rate than me. The childhood friend and his rich friends.

Do you understand why that's ****** up?

"No, I don't expect you to buy me drinks but I want you to pay a higher percentage of your income to fix my roads.   Yeah, yeah, I know we use the same roads but you make so much more."

It's not ****** up. That's the way the way it works.

Posted by burnsy483 on 6/10/2014 2:22:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/10/2014 2:13:00 PM (view original):
I think the problem tec and I have(I know it's the problem I have) is that we're not fans of "They have more so they'll miss it less."   I'm not comfortable spending other people's money or deciding how much they'll miss it if I take it. 

As I said to burnsy, the guy making less than you assumes you'll miss it less also.   I drive the same roads, am protected by the same military, governed by the same clowns, etc, etc, as Bill Gates.  Why should I expect him to pay a higher percentage than me?

Because IMO, more people with more money in their pockets is a good thing.  Which is probably why I find the "fair tax" intriguing.  It's more money in our pockets.  

I get the argument that people with more money shouldn't be forced to pay the govt more money, just because they have it and can afford to.  But it makes for a better society in a whole, in my opinion.

And yea, by the way, the guy who makes $30,000 would be correct.  I'll miss my 25% less than he would if he were forced to pay it.  And he pays 15%.

I think there are a lot more positives to the fair tax than negatives.

No more lobbying for tax exemptions like BP and other companies get. All goods and services are taxed equally. No exceptions.

Incentivises foreign investment here on US soil.... I.e. companies like Honda to spend millions refurbishing warehouses to employ Americans here in the US because from a tax/cost standpoint it makes sense. Right now the opposite is happening and jobs are going to other countries that are more cost efficient and our warehouses look like eye sores.

Closes the capital gains tax rate issue. The biggest kick I get out of the capital gains debate is that those opposed don't realize that the wealthy make their real gains IN THE MARKET. Not in savings accounts. By closing that so called loophole simply because the rich (although technically anyone can) get to take advantage of it means that the middle class now can no longer take advantage of it either should they have the extra money. Its like cutting off their nose to spite their face.

Posted by bad_luck on 6/10/2014 2:32:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 6/10/2014 2:07:00 PM (view original):
To paraphrase: "giving people free money is bad, because they'll just go and spend it".

LOL

Yeah, I'm not surprised you missed the point.

You give the prebate as a way to subsidize the tax on poor people but then they have to pay the sales tax when they spend the prebate, reducing its value.

OMG!  I'm not going to buy that $5 item I really want/need because I'll have to PAY SALES TAX!!!

The horror!

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/10/2014 2:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 6/10/2014 2:34:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/10/2014 2:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 6/10/2014 2:30:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/10/2014 2:28:00 PM (view original):
Let's just put this in a real situation.

You and a childhood friend go out for drinks.   You're making 30k selling hammers.   He invented Facebook.   Do you EXPECT him to pick up the tab? 

No.

But you're comfortable telling strangers to "pick up the tax tab", right?

Yea, he should be paying a higher tax rate than me. The childhood friend and his rich friends.

Do you understand why that's ****** up?

"No, I don't expect you to buy me drinks but I want you to pay a higher percentage of your income to fix my roads.   Yeah, yeah, I know we use the same roads but you make so much more."

I understand the argument.  I understand the philosophical difference we have here.  But I also understand that we're all better off that the middle class has more money in our pockets because the guy who invented facebook pays at a higher tax rate than I do.  More people are happy, more people are better off, and the guys who are still very much better off than most are still happy with their financial state.

It's not Gates' or Cubans' job to ensure your happiness.