47% from two is NOT good.  Not remotely.
Thomas career playoff efg: .463 ... and .455 from two.  Listing aggregate totals is not really the best measure ...

You can have a bad thirty point game.

Meanwhile, Stockton:

.503 playoff EFG.  and over 50% from two.

 

Posted by arssanguinus on 7/13/2012 2:53:00 PM (view original):

Oh come on.  You are stretching.  Statistically, you can't support Thomas being better than Stockton>  it really isn't even a close argument.  In other words "The actual evidence on the court doesn't support me, so I'll just ignore it"

 

Umm. Statistics aren't all that matter. In the playoffs there are tangibles. But intangibles are most important in this case b/c they translated to wins/championships which are the MOST IMPORTANT things.  NBA Titles, leadership and the ability to dominate are all characteristics that count, you can't just discard them b/c Stockton was superior statistically IN THE REGULAR SEASON!

He was superior statistically in the playoffs.  Those numbers I just gave were playoff numbers ...

Thomas had two good playoff years: 84-85 and 89-90 - and a couple good stretches of games.  Arguably Dumars, Laimbeer and Rodman were as much if not more responsible for the titles as Thomas was.

I think some guys get too sentimental over the Dream Team.  I'd take Durant over Mullin in a jump-shooting contest any day of the week and twice on Sundays.  In fact, I can't think of anyone I'd even CONSIDER taking over Durant in terms of pure shooting from the past 20 years except maybe JJ Reddick.

Posted by a_in_the_b on 7/13/2012 3:56:00 PM (view original):
47% from two is NOT good.  Not remotely.
Thomas career playoff efg: .463 ... and .455 from two.  Listing aggregate totals is not really the best measure ...

You can have a bad thirty point game.

Meanwhile, Stockton:

.503 playoff EFG.  and over 50% from two.

 

John Stockton was statistically the better player!!!  But hell, on paper Chris Webber (3 year Career peak: 25-11-5) is better than Kevin Mchale (2 year Career Peak 24-9-3). Does that make Webber Better than Mchale? Didn't think so. B/c Mchale elevated his game in playoff time and won games/won championships, while Webber got worse in playoff time and didn't win enough games/no championships. It's the same way with Isiah and Stockton.

The Boston Celtics won games/Won championships ... not Kevin McHale.  And ...

Really bad example;  McHale had a better statistical career than Webber.  EFG  .555 to Webber's .487.  Better block rate.  Lower turnover rate.  Better defender ... McHale was a more efficient player during the regular season as well as the playoffs.  Problem is, you seem to be stuck on accumulative totals rather than the combination of totals and efficiency.

And of course what Reddick and Mullin have in common is that they are far less good as all-around basketball players than Durant, but that's not really the argument here...

I'd like to point out that I do think the Dream Team would beat the 2012 team, but I think it would be very close.  That 6-4 simulation result of dacj's seems about right to me.  The Dream Team could beat up on the new guys down low, but the only really great perimeter defender on that team is Pippen.  Please note that in this case I'm not referring to defending of wing players but defending the jumpshot on the perimeter.  Stockton was at least a good defender and probably would have been the 2nd best defender of the shooters on the 2012 team, but while Jordan and Drexler were very good defenders they were both more comfortable defending the drive than the shot.  Particularly true for Drexler.  The real problem for the Dream Team is that they are going to have 2 guys from amongst Robinson, Ewing, Malone, and Barkley on the floor at virtually all times.  That means that most of the time one of them is going to have to guard LeBron, 'Melo, or Durant.  The rest of the time they have to guard Kevin Love, who is still faster than them and still a 3-point shooter who's going to pull them out of the paint.  None of those '92 guys can guard any of the '12 guys they'd be matched up with at the 4.  You pretty much figure that either the Dream Team would have to go well out of its comfort zone or else the '12 team will absolutely murder whoever's at the 4 most of the time.  There's no way that this simulation can account for that, but I think it's hard to deny that it's a major matchup problem that would likely keep the games close in spite of the Jordan advantage.

dahs, I agree with most of that, but I'd put $100 down that Mullin could beat Durant in a game of HORSE (both in their prime)

Posted by m4284850 on 7/13/2012 3:44:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 7/13/2012 2:47:00 PM (view original):
Why are we talking about how clutch stockton is when he was the 3rd option on the Jazz offense for most of his career? It's like saying Scottie Pippen was terrible because he wasn't clutch; well of course when Jordan took all the final shots. Or saying Jason Kidd sucked because he never scored much in his career. Stockton was never the focal point of the Jazz offense.

Stockton was the best player on his team!?!?! Karl Malone would argue differently, considering how he was averaging 25-30ppg. 

If you want to talk about offensive efficiency, it's not even close. Stockton was a career 52% shooter from the field. Isiah Thomas is like Allen Iverson with less volume, but AI went to the line like a competitive eater at the buffet. 

1. Not really, Stockton was just a bad playoff player for the most part (it's not clutch when you get worse when it matters) Isiah got better when it mattered (EXAMPLE: '90 finals- Averaged a 28-5-7, and shot 11-16 for 3!  Now Isiah's all time playoff averages- 20-9-5 (111 Games) Stockton's playoff averages- 13-10-4  (182 games). The Blazers eliminated the Jazz in '91 and '92, Stockton shot 6 for 25, getting outplayed by TERRY PORTER (averaged 26-8 for the series)!  There's plenty more examples, but I'd rather not do the research (please don't make me do the research ;)!

2. Never said Stockton was the best player on the team, he wasn't. I said if he was, the team probaly wouldn't be very good. What I'm saying is if you replaced Isiah with Stock on those championship piston teams, they wouldn't have been champions. Isiah was a much more valuable player in his prime than stockton was.

3.If you remove the 3 pointers (b/c when he was in his prime basically everybody was missing 3 pointers so you can still blame him, but he kind of has an excuse, Example: league average in 1983 is 24%. 3's didn't start to look somewhat effecient until 1987 (league average about 30%) so Isiah was in the horrible 3 pt shooting era for 6 years, as his FG % got butchered. He was actually a career 47% shooter from 2.

ok m#s, I was gonna just go along with, well, dude really likes Zeke and agree to disagree, but #2 stopped me...you are honestly saying that if the Bad Boys had Stockton at the point they wouldn't have won an NBA championship? That's nuts...now I think you must actually BE Isiah Thomas...

DUmars with Stockton passing to him would have been deadly.  Actually, add Aguirre to that mix.

Posted by dacj501 on 7/13/2012 4:46:00 PM (view original):
dahs, I agree with most of that, but I'd put $100 down that Mullin could beat Durant in a game of HORSE (both in their prime)

Were you bored/lonely enough to watch KD's pre All-Star game HORSE competitions when that was happening?

Posted by dahsdebater on 7/13/2012 4:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dacj501 on 7/13/2012 4:46:00 PM (view original):
dahs, I agree with most of that, but I'd put $100 down that Mullin could beat Durant in a game of HORSE (both in their prime)

Were you bored/lonely enough to watch KD's pre All-Star game HORSE competitions when that was happening?

no, I missed all of all star weekend this time around - I'm just old, and a SU fan who watched an awful lot of Mullin back in the day. Dude was an assassin. Not that Durant isn't - hell Durant will be at some point in his career, the best active player in the NBA (probably more than once...) I'd love to be able to watch this match-up though...

Posted by m4284850 on 7/13/2012 3:44:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 7/13/2012 2:47:00 PM (view original):
Why are we talking about how clutch stockton is when he was the 3rd option on the Jazz offense for most of his career? It's like saying Scottie Pippen was terrible because he wasn't clutch; well of course when Jordan took all the final shots. Or saying Jason Kidd sucked because he never scored much in his career. Stockton was never the focal point of the Jazz offense.

Stockton was the best player on his team!?!?! Karl Malone would argue differently, considering how he was averaging 25-30ppg. 

If you want to talk about offensive efficiency, it's not even close. Stockton was a career 52% shooter from the field. Isiah Thomas is like Allen Iverson with less volume, but AI went to the line like a competitive eater at the buffet. 

1. Not really, Stockton was just a bad playoff player for the most part (it's not clutch when you get worse when it matters) Isiah got better when it mattered (EXAMPLE: '90 finals- Averaged a 28-5-7, and shot 11-16 for 3!  Now Isiah's all time playoff averages- 20-9-5 (111 Games) Stockton's playoff averages- 13-10-4  (182 games). The Blazers eliminated the Jazz in '91 and '92, Stockton shot 6 for 25, getting outplayed by TERRY PORTER (averaged 26-8 for the series)!  There's plenty more examples, but I'd rather not do the research (please don't make me do the research ;)!

2. Never said Stockton was the best player on the team, he wasn't. I said if he was, the team probaly wouldn't be very good. What I'm saying is if you replaced Isiah with Stock on those championship piston teams, they wouldn't have been champions. Isiah was a much more valuable player in his prime than stockton was.

3.If you remove the 3 pointers (b/c when he was in his prime basically everybody was missing 3 pointers so you can still blame him, but he kind of has an excuse, Example: league average in 1983 is 24%. 3's didn't start to look somewhat effecient until 1987 (league average about 30%) so Isiah was in the horrible 3 pt shooting era for 6 years, as his FG % got butchered. He was actually a career 47% shooter from 2.

     OK a-in-the-b. I have more examples, ( I had to do the :( research)   First the stockton performances: His playoff #'s are blown up by the 97 and 98 years when he was guarded by scrubs as I previously mentioned, and the 1988 season when he had a huge playoffs (shot 57% averaged 20 and 15) before losing to the Lakers. But besides that 1 impressive postseason he's been really nothing as a postseason player.  From '92 to '96 Stockton shot just 44% and 30% from 3.  In 89 the 2 seed Jazz got swept by the 7 seed warriors (their PG was Winston Garland).  In '90 Kevin Johnson and the suns beat Utah in a deciding game 5.  Already mentioned Stockton choking away the '91 and '92 playoffs.  The '93 Jazz blew a 2-1 series lead and lost to Seattle in the 1st round, as Stockton shot 4 for 14 in a series clinching game 4 at home.  In '94 the Jazz lost in the Western Finals to Houston, and Stockton made 27 of 65 shots (41%) and averaged just 9.4 assists for the series (averaged 13 that year during the regular season). The '95 Jazz lost a deciding game 5 at home to Houston, Stockton had 5 assists and 12 points on 4 of 14 shooting. And then the Jazz lost game 7 of the Western finals  to Seattle.  In this series John Stockton gets absolutely DOMINATED by Gary Payton. Payton averages 21-6 on 56% shooting, Stockton Averages 10-8 on 39% shooting! 

     By this time Stockton is 34 and he should be starting a downward slope into retirement. But he gets lucky as Magic and Isiah were gone, Mark Price and Kevin Johnson were fading. Penny Hardaway was about to blow-out his knee, Tim Hardaway tore his ACL and was now much easier to defend, and Kidd and Marbury were too young. That left Gary Payton and John Stockton as the only great PG's left (most of the other ones sucked).

OK I hope this has started to convince you!

Posted by dacj501 on 7/13/2012 4:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by m4284850 on 7/13/2012 3:44:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 7/13/2012 2:47:00 PM (view original):
Why are we talking about how clutch stockton is when he was the 3rd option on the Jazz offense for most of his career? It's like saying Scottie Pippen was terrible because he wasn't clutch; well of course when Jordan took all the final shots. Or saying Jason Kidd sucked because he never scored much in his career. Stockton was never the focal point of the Jazz offense.

Stockton was the best player on his team!?!?! Karl Malone would argue differently, considering how he was averaging 25-30ppg. 

If you want to talk about offensive efficiency, it's not even close. Stockton was a career 52% shooter from the field. Isiah Thomas is like Allen Iverson with less volume, but AI went to the line like a competitive eater at the buffet. 

1. Not really, Stockton was just a bad playoff player for the most part (it's not clutch when you get worse when it matters) Isiah got better when it mattered (EXAMPLE: '90 finals- Averaged a 28-5-7, and shot 11-16 for 3!  Now Isiah's all time playoff averages- 20-9-5 (111 Games) Stockton's playoff averages- 13-10-4  (182 games). The Blazers eliminated the Jazz in '91 and '92, Stockton shot 6 for 25, getting outplayed by TERRY PORTER (averaged 26-8 for the series)!  There's plenty more examples, but I'd rather not do the research (please don't make me do the research ;)!

2. Never said Stockton was the best player on the team, he wasn't. I said if he was, the team probaly wouldn't be very good. What I'm saying is if you replaced Isiah with Stock on those championship piston teams, they wouldn't have been champions. Isiah was a much more valuable player in his prime than stockton was.

3.If you remove the 3 pointers (b/c when he was in his prime basically everybody was missing 3 pointers so you can still blame him, but he kind of has an excuse, Example: league average in 1983 is 24%. 3's didn't start to look somewhat effecient until 1987 (league average about 30%) so Isiah was in the horrible 3 pt shooting era for 6 years, as his FG % got butchered. He was actually a career 47% shooter from 2.

ok m#s, I was gonna just go along with, well, dude really likes Zeke and agree to disagree, but #2 stopped me...you are honestly saying that if the Bad Boys had Stockton at the point they wouldn't have won an NBA championship? That's nuts...now I think you must actually BE Isiah Thomas...

For one Stockton didn't have the backbone to keep the bad boys in line. Imagine what Rodman would've done to stock, he would've beat the sh*t out of em'! So if you take Rodman out of the equation and keep Dantley in the equation (never would have gotten tried, b/c Isiah wanted him to be) the bad boys can't beat Portland. Even hypothetically with them in the equation Porter runs circles around Stock as he did in '91 in '92. Stock was a sh*tty playoff player (It's evident in my post above) unless he was playing against a stiff (like Matt Maloney or Steve Kerr). Plus Stock couldn't take over a game, the Pistons wouldn't of had a go-to-guy, Dumars couldn't have been the go-to-guy.

Posted by m4284850 on 7/13/2012 5:16:00 PM (view original):

Posted by m4284850 on 7/13/2012 3:44:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 7/13/2012 2:47:00 PM (view original):
Why are we talking about how clutch stockton is when he was the 3rd option on the Jazz offense for most of his career? It's like saying Scottie Pippen was terrible because he wasn't clutch; well of course when Jordan took all the final shots. Or saying Jason Kidd sucked because he never scored much in his career. Stockton was never the focal point of the Jazz offense.

Stockton was the best player on his team!?!?! Karl Malone would argue differently, considering how he was averaging 25-30ppg. 

If you want to talk about offensive efficiency, it's not even close. Stockton was a career 52% shooter from the field. Isiah Thomas is like Allen Iverson with less volume, but AI went to the line like a competitive eater at the buffet. 

1. Not really, Stockton was just a bad playoff player for the most part (it's not clutch when you get worse when it matters) Isiah got better when it mattered (EXAMPLE: '90 finals- Averaged a 28-5-7, and shot 11-16 for 3!  Now Isiah's all time playoff averages- 20-9-5 (111 Games) Stockton's playoff averages- 13-10-4  (182 games). The Blazers eliminated the Jazz in '91 and '92, Stockton shot 6 for 25, getting outplayed by TERRY PORTER (averaged 26-8 for the series)!  There's plenty more examples, but I'd rather not do the research (please don't make me do the research ;)!

2. Never said Stockton was the best player on the team, he wasn't. I said if he was, the team probaly wouldn't be very good. What I'm saying is if you replaced Isiah with Stock on those championship piston teams, they wouldn't have been champions. Isiah was a much more valuable player in his prime than stockton was.

3.If you remove the 3 pointers (b/c when he was in his prime basically everybody was missing 3 pointers so you can still blame him, but he kind of has an excuse, Example: league average in 1983 is 24%. 3's didn't start to look somewhat effecient until 1987 (league average about 30%) so Isiah was in the horrible 3 pt shooting era for 6 years, as his FG % got butchered. He was actually a career 47% shooter from 2.

     OK a-in-the-b. I have more examples, ( I had to do the :( research)   First the stockton performances: His playoff #'s are blown up by the 97 and 98 years when he was guarded by scrubs as I previously mentioned, and the 1988 season when he had a huge playoffs (shot 57% averaged 20 and 15) before losing to the Lakers. But besides that 1 impressive postseason he's been really nothing as a postseason player.  From '92 to '96 Stockton shot just 44% and 30% from 3.  In 89 the 2 seed Jazz got swept by the 7 seed warriors (their PG was Winston Garland).  In '90 Kevin Johnson and the suns beat Utah in a deciding game 5.  Already mentioned Stockton choking away the '91 and '92 playoffs.  The '93 Jazz blew a 2-1 series lead and lost to Seattle in the 1st round, as Stockton shot 4 for 14 in a series clinching game 4 at home.  In '94 the Jazz lost in the Western Finals to Houston, and Stockton made 27 of 65 shots (41%) and averaged just 9.4 assists for the series (averaged 13 that year during the regular season). The '95 Jazz lost a deciding game 5 at home to Houston, Stockton had 5 assists and 12 points on 4 of 14 shooting. And then the Jazz lost game 7 of the Western finals  to Seattle.  In this series John Stockton gets absolutely DOMINATED by Gary Payton. Payton averages 21-6 on 56% shooting, Stockton Averages 10-8 on 39% shooting! 

     By this time Stockton is 34 and he should be starting a downward slope into retirement. But he gets lucky as Magic and Isiah were gone, Mark Price and Kevin Johnson were fading. Penny Hardaway was about to blow-out his knee, Tim Hardaway tore his ACL and was now much easier to defend, and Kidd and Marbury were too young. That left Gary Payton and John Stockton as the only great PG's left (most of the other ones sucked).

OK I hope this has started to convince you!

THomas's numbers are blown up by 84-85 and 89-90.  Sorry>  You still have no legs to stand on.