Demotion penalties Topic

MikeT23
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Quit saying "straw man" like it means something. Or at least learn the meaning. You're making yourself look rather stupid.

A player who is not at risk when being demoted is a 26th man who can be moved up/down at will. Once he has been demoted, he either has options or he has cleared waivers.

My MG team has 18 BL players with options. My Coop team has 19 BL players with options. Options are not a problem UNLESS you've been demoting willy nilly for at least 3 seasons.
3/3/2010 3:20 PM
gjello10
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Quote: Originally Posted By MikeT23 on 3/03/2010
Quit saying "straw man" like it means something. Or at least learn the meaning. You're making yourself look rather stupid.



It means, rather than deal with your real opponent, you set up a fake one (the "straw man"), by pretending I said something I didn't say, then knocking down the fake opponent as if it were the real one. And I used it correctly. You do it a lot.
3/3/2010 3:45 PM
gjello10
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My MG team has 18 BL players with options. My Coop team has 19 BL players with options. Options are not a problem UNLESS you've been demoting willy nilly for at least 3 seasons.

If you were trying to use demotions to expand your BL roster year after year, you most certainly would not have this many guys with options now. You know this, and know that as a result, this fact (the # of guys with options), is deceptive. Yet you say it anyway, hoping no one will notice.
3/3/2010 3:48 PM
MikeT23
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No, I'm afraid you're mistaken.

To summarize:
You: Demotion penalties should probably stop after the 2nd time in a season.

Me: If there's no risk of a demotion hit, the player becomes a 26th man because you can bounce him up/down from AAA with no fear of repercussion.

You: Straw man.



As you can see, there's nothing straw man about my argument. My point is valid and I didn't put one single word in your mouth.
3/3/2010 3:49 PM
MikeT23
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Quote: Originally Posted By gjello10 on 3/03/2010
My MG team has 18 BL players with options. My Coop team has 19 BL players with options. Options are not a problem UNLESS you've been demoting willy nilly for at least 3 seasons.

If you were trying to use demotions to expand your BL roster year after year, you most certainly would not have this many guys with options now. You know this, and know that as a result, this fact (the # of guys with options), is deceptive. Yet you say it anyway, hoping no one will notice.


I wouldn't do that unless I had no fear of demotion hits. As it stands, I take roster decisions as seriously as you can take roster decisions in a simgame. Trying to use demotions to expand your BL roster seems rather silly but, like the 40 man loophole(which is why I don't have 25 players with options), I'd abuse it until it was closed.
3/3/2010 3:51 PM
gjello10
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Quote: Originally Posted By MikeT23 on 3/03/2010
No, I'm afraid you're mistaken.

To summarize:
You: Demotion penalties should probably stop after the 2nd time in a season.

Me: If there's no risk of a demotion hit, the player becomes a 26th man because you can bounce him up/down from AAA with no fear of repercussion.

You: Straw man.



As you can see, there's nothing straw man about my argument. My point is valid and I didn't put one single word in your mouth.

You said this: "All players don't take demotion hits. I just checked. I've demoted 5 with my two current teams. Only 1 took a hit." Clearly this implies that I, or somebody else, suggested that every demoted player takes a hit. Which no one did. Putting words in people's mouths, then refuting those misattributed words as if you had refuted the other person.
3/3/2010 4:01 PM
gjello10
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Quote: Originally Posted By MikeT23 on 3/03/2010

No, I'm afraid you're mistaken.

To summarize:
You: Demotion penalties should probably stop after the 2nd time in a season.

Me: If there's no risk of a demotion hit, the player becomes a 26th man because you can bounce him up/down from AAA with no fear of repercussion.

You: Straw man.



As you can see, there's nothing straw man about my argument. My point is valid and I didn't put one single word in your mouth.

^^^with regards to this one, perhaps I misunderstood your orginal point. It sounded to me (and still does, when I read the original post) as if you were saying that someone suggested there be no demotion penalty at all. Which no one did. If this is all you meant, I would simply say that having to expose the player to up to 2 demotion penalties is sufficient price, in my mind, for this limited flexibility. Intelligent people may disagree in good faith on that question, however.
3/3/2010 4:05 PM
MikeT23
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Quote: Originally Posted By gjello10 on 3/03/2010
If you want your star players taking up to 2 demotion hits a season, go right ahead. Also, none of them can be out of options, which means you have to cycle your entire roster every 3 seasons, unless you want to be constantly exposing your players to waivers. By all means.

This seems to imply that a demotion hit is guaranteed.

But that's not really the point. The point is.....Once a player is guaranteed of no demotion hit, he becomes a 26th player because he can be demoted at will with no fear of repercussion.
3/3/2010 4:05 PM
gjello10
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Quote: Originally Posted By MikeT23 on 3/03/2010
Quote: Originally Posted By gjello10 on 3/03/2010

If you want your star players taking up to 2 demotion hits a season, go right ahead. Also, none of them can be out of options, which means you have to cycle your entire roster every 3 seasons, unless you want to be constantly exposing your players to waivers. By all means.



This seems to imply that a demotion hit is guaranteed.

But that's not really the point. The point is.....Once a player is guaranteed of no demotion hit, he becomes a 26th player because he can be demoted at will with no fear of repercussion.
No. Clearly "exposed to up to 2" means they could get 0, 1, or 2.
3/3/2010 4:07 PM
MikeT23
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Fair enough. But the real topic is......Once a player is guaranteed of no demotion hit, he becomes a 26th player because he can be demoted at will with no fear of repercussion.

3/3/2010 4:10 PM
gjello10
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Fair enough. I'll re-post this:
I would simply say that having to expose the player to up to 2 demotion penalties is sufficient price, in my mind, for this limited flexibility. Intelligent people may disagree in good faith on that question, however.
3/03/2010 at 5:05 pm
3/3/2010 4:22 PM
MikeT23
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Once you allow teams to build 26, 28, 32 man rosters, you've killed any concern for fatigue. May as well remove it from the game and let everyone play at 100%.
3/3/2010 4:31 PM
gjello10
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Quote: Originally Posted By MikeT23 on 3/03/2010Once you allow teams to build 26, 28, 32 man rosters, you've killed any concern for fatigue. May as well remove it from the game and let everyone play at 100%
Again, any individual player can only be optioned in 3 seasons, and the better players (the one who play enough to have the biggest fatigue concerns) will be too good for most owners to risk even 1 demotion penalty (otherwise, they'd be using this strategy now on a more limited basis). Having 10 guys available to fill your last 3 roster spots doesn't help fatigue much if 12 of the 15 guys you want to get the most playing time are either (a) out of options, (b) too good to risk even one demotion penalty, or (c) too good to be without for the full 10 game optional assignment.

I hope you can realize that "may as well remove it from the game and let everyone play at 100%" is just an enormous amount of hyperbole, at the very least.
3/3/2010 4:44 PM
MikeT23
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I don't see demotion penalties as the end of a career or even usefulness. I'll take to 50 DUR players rated 93/88/72/75/81 and demote them twice to end up with two 88/85/68/70/78 all day. 2 points doesn't make my cry "OH NOES!!! MY PLAYER IS NOW USELESS!!!"

In the end, there's nothing wrong with the current system. If you need to demote someone more than once, you need to think a little longer about roster decisions but it could happen. If you need to demote someone three times, it's time to re-evaluate how you play the game.
3/3/2010 5:04 PM
jweiland
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Real life situation I am currently in. I just traded for a guy that's a potential future HOFer. Hitting splits are basically 90s across the board, glove eventually will be able to play possibly at 3B, he could pass right now as a RFer and definitely as LF and 1B.

Problem is the guy that had him promoted him way too quick. He was drafted last year #2 overall, spent some time in rookie ball, some time in Low-A and then this year BOOM. 60 games at AAA (where he dominated) and just called him up to the majors. Ideally for his development I feel like he'd be best suited at AA or AAA right now, but he is 22 and his bat could be decent at the ML level right now. My focus is just to get him to those projected ratings and have a HOFer rather than a very good player.

So upon getting him on my team do I demote and risk whatever penalty might ensue? Or do I roll with him at the ML level and hope he can develop there?
3/10/2010 8:47 AM
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