If you think there's anything nefarious in any of my actions on this, you've obviously never seen one of my OL teams... rarely do they even finish with winning records... I don't enter OLs to win (except for when going for the bounties, but AAA and or scrubs don't help with those), but to test the sim.

However, the strong reaction is baffling to me, especially with quotes being pulled so far out of context to twist them as "cheating" and "schooling" and "taking advantage" ...

knowing how valuable AAA are, I figured it would be easier to trade AAA I don't need because most owners would have a greater need for AAA. ... ...thus the trades benefit both teams mutually.

That's the context missing from the above:

My take on the above short story begins and ends with :

... "So, I began drafting more with the intent to trade my AAA for scrubs, " . . .

Obviously in that camp and regardless of how otherwise eloquently presented, seen thru that lens, dissenters are of course just poo-poo oh but hey nothing to see here can't we all just get along as long as it's on my terms.

Which is also missing the entire point of my post, which was to show this whole argument is stupid because it's not taking into account how it affects new owners or how value actually functions, or more importantly, that this is such a minor issue, that it doesn't even rate even if it were a problem; which it isn't.

The only issue is that the randomization of AAA, as Grizzly has called out multiple times is what creates the knowledge gap. Throw their real names on and the knowledge gap disappears entirely because there's now no secret identity or secret normalization factor. But neither of those have anything to do with trade value relative to scrubs - the math on that has been displayed multiple times.

There's no inherent advantage one way or the other, it's all based on team build and context. Which, in most cases (especially with newer users), will be mutually beneficial because less efficiently drafted teams will have more use and need for the AAA.

Posted by bheid408 on 12/11/2020 6:33:00 PM (view original):
Sorry, one last question...
So assuming you are correct in that the trades are beneficial to both involved, how does it affect those that aren't involved in the trades? If they don't get the extra AAA player or don't upgrade a player using the extra cash on the WW from dumping scrubs.... Doesn't it put them at a disadvantage?


That's allright, you don't have to answer, I already know.

As far as other teams are affected is no different than any other trade in any other league involving any combo of scrub for scrub, aaa for aaa, player for player, pick for pick, or any combination thereof. They are only indirectly impacted by the relationship of that particular trades overall effect on the league, which is marginal, at best.

To imply there is some extra disadvantageous impact due to this particular combo is to repeat the mistake above of not understanding relational value.

Posted by bheid408 on 12/12/2020 9:01:00 AM (view original):
just4me, you constantly downplay the trades suggesting they don't make a difference when they evidently do or your brother wouldn't be making them.

If you really believe relational value is insignificant when some teams get to add an extra player worth up to $2.6M to their roster and another owner gets to upgrade a player using the WW adding significant value to his roster then, you are wrong, it does impact the league, Since when does extra value not make an impact? Why does everyone start with an $80M cap and the same number of AAA players? Maybe WIS should just give some of the owners an extra AAA player and give ryno an extra Million to start with if it is insignificant.

It doesn't impact the league. Everyone can do it. It is such a minor issue, it isn't a problem. If you don't accept then you can't complain. Using deadballers is worse (even tho everyone has the choice to use them or not). It's allowed therefore it ok. It's just a game!
Cheaters will try to justify cheating anyway they can.

The only thing I said was insignificant was the impact to other teams in the league. To the teams making the trades they each gain value relative to their own needs. No one is gaining extra value over the rest of the league. Ryno or anyone trading for scrubs isn’t gaining an extra million over the rest of the league just as the owner gaining the aaa isn’t gaining an extra million over the rest of the league.

Every team has $80m + 6 AAA hitters ($10.8m) + 2 AAA pitchers ($2m), for a total value of $93m, with $80m cap on active roster. Ryno dropping scrubs to the WW doesn’t give him extra $. Those were already his. Moving a scrub for a AAA player now shifts how those dollars are deployed. So Ryno’s total value drops to around $91.5m and the other teams increases to $94.5. The active roster not using AAA is still capped at an $80m active roster, but Ryno has shifted value from his inactive roster to value on his active roster in a different way than the other owner. The owner using AAA due to the value of AAA relative to their salary could bring their active roster up to $93.4m (if called up all AAA for scrubs).

Ryno has reduced his total roster valuation by increasing his $ per player. Instead of having 33 players to get to his $91.5m, Ryno has 24, while the other owner has 33 still for their $94.5m. Ryno’s gets there by spending $3.3m/player (with the 24 players in this example, but could get to $3.7m if he drafted precisely and got to the 21 minimum) and the other owner gets there by spending $3.2m/player (if they don’t use AAA) or up to $3.7m (if they drafted efficiently and use all 9 AAA) But Ryno also loses roster flexibility and potentially has to face appearance fatigue issues by running short (And you can gain this per player value and get to $3.7m without trading just by dropping scrubs without picking anyone up).

Once again, it comes down to relational value... They aren’t being handed extra money and are capped at what they can use at a level similar to all other teams in the league. And that value is relative to how the teams are drafted and roster construction. The fact that you’re trying to make a big deal out of this little difference is still mind-blowing to me. The teams making these trades both benefit. Thus why it’s referred to as a mutually beneficial trade and why both teams agree to it.

The rest of the league isn’t really impacted. Especially any more so than any other league with any other trade. If these trades bother you and are seen as cheating, then literally any trade in any league (especially picks for players in progressives) should bother you equally and all traders viewed as cheaters.

And the deadballers quote was clearly a reference to the impact on new owners retention, which I would agree, probably has a larger negative impact on retaining new owners than AAA for scrub trades.

Just WOW!

Take off the robe bro!

pervert

Yeah, it's obvious there's no cheating going on here. There are reasons to not like trading, but it's counter-productive to call anyone -- let alone good owners who've added a lot to the site over the years -- "cheaters" when what they're doing is completely within the rules.

Posted by bheid408 on 12/12/2020 7:53:00 PM (view original):
I concur that 'cheating" is a harsh word. "Gaming the System" is a nice way to say the same thing. As I previously posted crazystengel, just because it is allowed doesn't make it right. There is Integrity in everyone. Some have more than others.

Amen Italyprof!

What Italy says is correct (mostly, I'm not going to get into religion and politcs, but I have the utmost respect for him and consider him a friend), but to the topic at hand, these trades aren't gaming the system.

The old Fatigue Strategy and the old Superman Long A strategy were gaming the system. Both also brought about great discussions related to the philosophy of the game itself -- which Italyprof alludes to above -- where it was hashed out over pages regarding how people play the game differently because they have different goals (playing a game versus playing a game): how those goals intersect and how those goals have common interests (growing the site and user base), and yet often opposing means and ends. Here's a couple of those threads that centered around the fatigue strategy and resting players for the playoffs:

https://www.whatifsports.com/forums/Posts.aspx?topicID=183838&page=3&TopicsPage=0?

https://www.whatifsports.com/forums/Posts.aspx?topicID=438692

There's nothing untoward with these trades. There's no system being exploited. There's no owners being given free or easy wins. There's two teams both looking to improve their team to compete as best as possible against all other teams in the league, including each other. They're both still working within the same salary and roster constraints as all of the other teams in the league. I'm still puzzled as to why this is viewed as exploitative at all, especially compared to any other trade involving any other combination of players, picks, scrubs, AAA, etc... If there's a problem with these trades, then there's a problem with the nature of trading itself.