We'll cover it today as I promised Taint and since Bob brought it up. Hot topic of the Day: ABORTION

Abortion doesn't promote freedom. It is anti-freedom. It is taking away the right to life. The same argument is used for abortion as what was used for slavery. "It's my property. I can do whatever I want with it. I think everyone on here can agree that people are not property. Why do so many use this to rationalize being okay with killing the unborn baby? It's not freedom. Once again, freedom is the right to life. You are denying the baby that right. It's unconstitutional. B_L always says the mom's rights trump's the baby's. Where in our constitution are we granted the right to take another's life? He also uses the argument that the supreme court has said it's okay, so it's okay. Has our court system not ever gotten another case wrong? We have discussed Plessy V. Ferguson recently. Did they get that right? I also keep hearing that if it's outlawed, people are going to do it anyways. Murder is outlawed. It still happens. Should we make it legal because people are going to do it anyways? Bob, I love you but you are wrong. Late-term abortions don't make for a more free society. They deny freedoms.

I NEVER claimed late term abortions make for a more free society. THAT is a misleading twist.

An obvious attempt to bias the argument.

I, in fact, NEVER said a word regarding MY views on abortion, late term or otherwise.

I will though, here and now, tell you Coach............. as you are from Georgia, and I am a citizen of Arizona, I believe YOU should have absolutely NO SAY in what my daughter may (or may not) do with her body or her life. Further, you and I are both males. Unless you are the male (prospective) Father of the Fetus, OR (like me) the Father of the daughter who may be carrying a fetus, you should have NO SAY in the matter. And, in fact, my say (as a potential Father of a daughter) is quite limited. Limited by the principles and morals instilled within the family, limited to an advisory role, a loving (hopefully) trusted voice to a daughter facing very a difficult life choice. Not even the Dads get to decide for the daughters, in my view.

Mother make that decision. With their OWN Gods and counsel. Others should NOT be involved at all! Particularly Governments!
The community should offer as many good choices as possible. EVERY BABY should be wanted!
In fact, every Baby NEEDS to be wanted. Unloved baby's end up everybody's problems. We end up housing them on OUR dollars!

In short, I believe (and would fight for within AZ) that Abortion should be legal and very rare. Every woman who cannot (in HER own good conscience) raise and love her child properly should be encouraged by the community at large to consider EVERY option and their should be a plethora of GOOD loving families presented as options to the woman facing the decision. I believe (given that scenario) that the VAST majority of Mothers would choose to give their Fetus LIFE in a loving home, IF they were convinced that option existed.

But, bottom line, with the current level of technology available to expectant couples of means. (tests of ALL sorts to determine the Fetus condition) it should NOT be societies position thru Laws wherein couples of means are allowed to abort their problem Fetus's within some allowable time frame, while at the same time folks of less means are forced to birth babies they don't want and can't properly care for or to break the Law and have abortions performed illegally. Nowadays, prospective parents know way too much about the condition of the Fetus very very early. It is quite common for couples to "select" which pregnancy to allow to develop full time BASED ON MEDICAL advise about the prognosis of a healthy life for the Fetus!

We have in vitro fertilization, etc.
Choices. And choices should be for all, NOT based on affluence!

I wasn't twisting your words. We have had this discussion in the past. I already knew where you stood. My response wasn't directly related to your prior post, but was a rebuttal to prior conversations.

Once again, th argument that you are making was the same argument that was used in support of slavery. "This is my property to do what I want with." You saying that I am male with no direct connection to the situation is irrelevant. As a decent human being, I should fight for life. If slavery were legal and someone in Arizona owned slaves, it would still be my place to stand against that all the way from Georgia. We are talking about taking an innocent life. No ethical person argues that this is wrong except for cases of abortion. It doesn't make sense. If an innocent person was being harmed that was already out of the womb in Arizona, you would applaud me for defending that person. But if an innocent life is being taken prior to birth, I am told to mind my own business. Please tell me how this logically makes sense.

I can see both sides on this one. I support abortion but only in special cases.

What are those special cases?

Rape is one. If the mother is at risk of death is another.

So, if I were to concede that those cases should be legal, would you concede that the other cases should be illegal?

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/6/2019 7:35:00 AM (view original):

Posted by dino27 on 2/6/2019 12:19:00 AM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/5/2019 11:09:00 PM (view original):
Gomiami sums it up well. You have every right to believe what you believe and i'm glad that you have a party to call home. It must be nice. I don't have one. Like I have said, I most closely relate with the libertarian party, but that's a waste as they practically win no elections.

I believe that every able-bodied person should be responsible for themselves. If they fail, that's on them. I don't believe it's the responsibility to help those who aren't able-bodied either. I believe that responsibility falls on the community, church, etc.

i dont mean this in a snide way....i really mean that......but im the agnostic who thinks that all the bibles are myths and God is not involved in our lives
and you are a believer in the testaments
but i believe in everyone being the good samaritan and you do not.
it is a microcosm of such a national paradox.

Dino, you have it totally backwards. I believe in everyone being a Good Samaritan. You believe Mr. omnipotent government can always come in compel action. I don't believe we need government for people to do the right thing. For some reason, you have this view that if people are against the government meddling in our lives then they are against helping people. That is just not right and I'm not sure why you think that. Your worldview is very backwards. I'm not being snide either.

you get it wrong.....individuals will not help others esp those with your point of view who say if able bodied people fail its on them....churches cant afford to help thousands and more...it is a pipe dream. for people who say fend for yourself even if you cant.

Tough for me to opine because I am not a woman and I dont know of any laws that force a man to do something with his body that he doesn’t want to do. Really tough call. I see Both sides.

Posted by cccp1014 on 2/6/2019 9:55:00 AM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/6/2019 7:35:00 AM (view original):
And the irony of your post is that you posted it right after I said the responsibility of humanitarian aid falls on the community, not the government.

I agree 100%, KO.

lol.

Slavery? Really??

Owning another person like cattle (or chattel), being able to mistreat them (if desired), breed them (fatten them) and sell them as "property" is hardly the same as a (potential) Mother making an informed, knowledgeable, and loving determination whether carrying a fetus to term and delivering the fetus to live as a "baby" is the right choice for both Her life AND the Fetus. Others don't get to jump into HER life and determine what's best as they don't KNOW what she knows. THEY don't have all the info. Hopefully, the woman understands the concept of pregnancy and childbirth and GETS the gravity and importance of her decision. IT IS, and I grant you this, it IS (potentially) a life. Assuming the fetus is healthy I (personally)--- for my own self, not speaking for anyone else---- would agree that there should be some fair and appropriate term limit (based on tri-mester or weeks?) to prohibit the KNOWING termination of a healthy fetus. IN short--- you shouldn't be able to abort a (healthy) fetus during delivery (or after!). Just MY opinion. It has NO bearing on what you do in Georgia.

P.S. (edited to add)
Heck I've seen Deliverance. What y'all do in Georgia is clearly y'all's business.
We's all looking for deliverance from something but in AZ we kinda keeps it private like.

It is most certainly the exact same argument as the slavery argument, so yes really slavery. The slavery argument was that it was my property to do what I want with. The abortion argument is that it is my body to do what I want with. Both arguments involve separate human life. To say otherwise is strictly denial. There is zero logical reasoning to end another person's life with abortion. It is not freedom of choice. It's the opposite of freedom and it is as disgusting of a practice as slavery. This is not me being holier than thou. This is me caring about people. Dino wants to help those who can physically fend for themselves and have a say. I would rather help those can't and have no voice in the issue. That is what true compassion is. Abortion is the most unamerican thing since slavery. It is abhorrent. It is taking the life of the innocent because they are inconvenient to you.

Abortion is lethal 100% of the time.

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/6/2019 12:31:00 PM (view original):
It is most certainly the exact same argument as the slavery argument, so yes really slavery. The slavery argument was that it was my property to do what I want with. The abortion argument is that it is my body to do what I want with. Both arguments involve separate human life. To say otherwise is strictly denial. There is zero logical reasoning to end another person's life with abortion. It is not freedom of choice. It's the opposite of freedom and it is as disgusting of a practice as slavery. This is not me being holier than thou. This is me caring about people. Dino wants to help those who can physically fend for themselves and have a say. I would rather help those can't and have no voice in the issue. That is what true compassion is. Abortion is the most unamerican thing since slavery. It is abhorrent. It is taking the life of the innocent because they are inconvenient to you.

Abortion is lethal 100% of the time.

Are there any countries where it is illegal?

Posted by dino27 on 2/6/2019 12:14:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/6/2019 7:35:00 AM (view original):

Posted by dino27 on 2/6/2019 12:19:00 AM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/5/2019 11:09:00 PM (view original):
Gomiami sums it up well. You have every right to believe what you believe and i'm glad that you have a party to call home. It must be nice. I don't have one. Like I have said, I most closely relate with the libertarian party, but that's a waste as they practically win no elections.

I believe that every able-bodied person should be responsible for themselves. If they fail, that's on them. I don't believe it's the responsibility to help those who aren't able-bodied either. I believe that responsibility falls on the community, church, etc.

i dont mean this in a snide way....i really mean that......but im the agnostic who thinks that all the bibles are myths and God is not involved in our lives
and you are a believer in the testaments
but i believe in everyone being the good samaritan and you do not.
it is a microcosm of such a national paradox.

Dino, you have it totally backwards. I believe in everyone being a Good Samaritan. You believe Mr. omnipotent government can always come in compel action. I don't believe we need government for people to do the right thing. For some reason, you have this view that if people are against the government meddling in our lives then they are against helping people. That is just not right and I'm not sure why you think that. Your worldview is very backwards. I'm not being snide either.

you get it wrong.....individuals will not help others esp those with your point of view who say if able bodied people fail its on them....churches cant afford to help thousands and more...it is a pipe dream. for people who say fend for yourself even if you cant.

I respect your viewpoint, but we will just continue to disagree. I believe in the good in people. Tang mentioned that he is pessimistic about people, but optimistic about government. My worldview is the opposite. It's based on history. ZERO governments in history have been pure. They all have been corrupt at some point. I feel my dislike for big government is pretty justified based on history.

@CCCP, 26 I believe. Someone can fact check me on that.