Posted by bruceleefan on 9/6/2021 10:14:00 AM (view original):
This is a direct quote from a Time magazine article from 2019:

Helayne is one of countless American students and teachers searching for material on the historical roles of people with diverse gender and sexual identities. And increasingly, that material is moving into the classroom, with five states having announced in 2019 that LGBTQ history must be taught in public schools. California became the first state to require schools to teach LGBTQ history in 2011, with the first K-8 textbooks approved to meet new state standards emerging six years later. Even so, mechanisms for enforcement, funding and teacher training are often unclear.

Yeah, how horrible it is to teach kids the truth and be honest with them about the world we live in, where LGBTQ folks are valued citizens and are part of the societal landscape and that said students will be interacting with throughout their lives. That's certainly "indoctrination" when you educate kids about the reality of the world. You totally made your point.

And it's a LONG LONG WAY from FORCING the teaching of "Sara has two mommies"....................

Posted by lostnfound74 on 9/6/2021 3:25:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 9/6/2021 12:50:00 AM (view original):

Posted by lostnfound74 on 9/5/2021 9:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 9/5/2021 11:06:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bruceleefan on 9/5/2021 10:43:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 9/3/2021 1:25:00 PM (view original):
Lostnfound arguing for literal indoctrination of children

Everyyhing we teach or do not teach our children in their formative "early education" years is indoctrination.

When we force 1st graders to read "Sara has 2 mommies" that is also indoctrination.

They are too young to think critically and therefore by the very definition we cannot help but to indoctrinate children.

The question is only indoctrinate them with WHAT?

Correct... sort of. There's a pretty big difference between teaching children that gay people exist vs forcing them to recite the pledge every day and also to engage in prayer where they promise to only follow Jesus Christ.

One is more educational, the other is more cult-ish.

Regardless, you're correct that choosing how we teach kids is pretty important and reflects the values we have as a society. And I think teaching that bigotry is bad is a pretty good value to impose (or if you like, indoctrinate) on the youth.

If you serve and follow Jesus Christ, you will never go wrong. Do anything else and you will

How is that bigotry? Being against the practice of H sexuality isn't bigotry, it is a choice of values

Bigotry: prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.

Being anti gay is bigotry by definition.

Also, I'm willing to bet that if you look through history, you could probably find some examples of those who say they follow Jesus doing some bad things

bigotry by YOUR definition

Do you have a different definition than all of the dictionaries?

Posted by bruceleefan on 9/6/2021 10:35:00 AM (view original):

Posted by lostnfound74 on 9/6/2021 3:24:00 AM (view original):
One classroom of students was supposed to write on what their obituary would say about them. how uplifting! You have probably heard about that one

To step back and examine what your obituary might say is actually a good exercise.
Too many waste years of their lives without much thought. This exercise makes them see the bigger picture.
Probably not for kids, but I wouldn't have an issue at the high school lvl.

I remember having to do an assignment like that. More like "write what you want your obituary to look like"

Forces kids to focus on the big picture and set goals for what they want their life to be.

Posted by lostnfound74 on 9/6/2021 3:24:00 AM (view original):
One classroom of students was supposed to write on what their obituary would say about them. how uplifting! You have probably heard about that one

How old was this classroom of students? If thy were 6, maybe not such a good idea. If they were high school students I see no problem with it.

Posted by lostnfound74 on 9/6/2021 3:23:00 AM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 9/6/2021 2:53:00 AM (view original):

Posted by lostnfound74 on 9/5/2021 9:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bruceleefan on 9/5/2021 10:43:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 9/3/2021 1:25:00 PM (view original):
Lostnfound arguing for literal indoctrination of children

Everyyhing we teach or do not teach our children in their formative "early education" years is indoctrination.

When we force 1st graders to read "Sara has 2 mommies" that is also indoctrination.

They are too young to think critically and therefore by the very definition we cannot help but to indoctrinate children.

The question is only indoctrinate them with WHAT?

Or how about the 11 yr old's assignment to write a piece on 'How I would kill my Uncle?' Or 'how I would do suicide?'
Schools are no longer places of learning.. They are being indoctrinated with Marxism and the doctrines of devils

show me proof of these assignments?

Nope, but it has happened. In the news in Vancouver a few years back

Okay, I'll just take your word for it. NOT!

rsp first I'm full of ****, then when I provide actual evidence you get all defensive. I never once said it was horrible nor did I make any other judgement.

bob, I don't see any distinction. If it is part of the curriculum then it is forced. How is that "a long long way from"? It is exactly what I said it was.

Last attempt to interact with either of you:

The actual definition of indoctrination is:
"The process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically".

There is no mention of good or bad or right or wrong. The word has taken on negative connotations only in very recent history, but whether or not you agree with a teaching or not in no way determines what is or isn't "indoctrination".

Posted by lostnfound74 on 9/5/2021 9:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 9/5/2021 11:06:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bruceleefan on 9/5/2021 10:43:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 9/3/2021 1:25:00 PM (view original):
Lostnfound arguing for literal indoctrination of children

Everyyhing we teach or do not teach our children in their formative "early education" years is indoctrination.

When we force 1st graders to read "Sara has 2 mommies" that is also indoctrination.

They are too young to think critically and therefore by the very definition we cannot help but to indoctrinate children.

The question is only indoctrinate them with WHAT?

Correct... sort of. There's a pretty big difference between teaching children that gay people exist vs forcing them to recite the pledge every day and also to engage in prayer where they promise to only follow Jesus Christ.

One is more educational, the other is more cult-ish.

Regardless, you're correct that choosing how we teach kids is pretty important and reflects the values we have as a society. And I think teaching that bigotry is bad is a pretty good value to impose (or if you like, indoctrinate) on the youth.

If you serve and follow Jesus Christ, you will never go wrong. Do anything else and you will

How is that bigotry? Being against the practice of H sexuality isn't bigotry, it is a choice of values

One of these is repeatedly and unambiguously proscribed by the Bible:

- Do not practice homosexuality
- Do not eat pigs

Funny how far-right "Christians" have so much trouble recognizing which one it is.

If you're going to follow every once-mentioned rule from the Old Testament - much of which is pre-history/oral tradition - you're going to need to change a LOT of things about your life.

Posted by dahsdebater on 9/6/2021 5:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by lostnfound74 on 9/5/2021 9:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 9/5/2021 11:06:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bruceleefan on 9/5/2021 10:43:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 9/3/2021 1:25:00 PM (view original):
Lostnfound arguing for literal indoctrination of children

Everyyhing we teach or do not teach our children in their formative "early education" years is indoctrination.

When we force 1st graders to read "Sara has 2 mommies" that is also indoctrination.

They are too young to think critically and therefore by the very definition we cannot help but to indoctrinate children.

The question is only indoctrinate them with WHAT?

Correct... sort of. There's a pretty big difference between teaching children that gay people exist vs forcing them to recite the pledge every day and also to engage in prayer where they promise to only follow Jesus Christ.

One is more educational, the other is more cult-ish.

Regardless, you're correct that choosing how we teach kids is pretty important and reflects the values we have as a society. And I think teaching that bigotry is bad is a pretty good value to impose (or if you like, indoctrinate) on the youth.

If you serve and follow Jesus Christ, you will never go wrong. Do anything else and you will

How is that bigotry? Being against the practice of H sexuality isn't bigotry, it is a choice of values

One of these is repeatedly and unambiguously proscribed by the Bible:

- Do not practice homosexuality
- Do not eat pigs

Funny how far-right "Christians" have so much trouble recognizing which one it is.

If you're going to follow every once-mentioned rule from the Old Testament - much of which is pre-history/oral tradition - you're going to need to change a LOT of things about your life.

He's probably wearing a cotton/polyester blend too...

"Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together"

I always tell people to go look up what they're supposed to do with the female members of their households when they menstruate and then get back to me.

i shall eat upon the mountain

Posted by bruceleefan on 9/6/2021 5:13:00 PM (view original):
rsp first I'm full of ****, then when I provide actual evidence you get all defensive. I never once said it was horrible nor did I make any other judgement.

bob, I don't see any distinction. If it is part of the curriculum then it is forced. How is that "a long long way from"? It is exactly what I said it was.

Last attempt to interact with either of you:

The actual definition of indoctrination is:
"The process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically".

There is no mention of good or bad or right or wrong. The word has taken on negative connotations only in very recent history, but whether or not you agree with a teaching or not in no way determines what is or isn't "indoctrination".

BL fan.

You don't?? (see the difference in NOT being forced??)

Curriculum is just that. The "outline" of what information is going to be dealt with in the classroom.
I know of no school that FORCES ANY child to participate in ANY portion of the curriculum that the child's "parent's or guardians" object to.............
EXCEPT in certain RELIGIOUS based schools wherein the Parent (or Guardian) only has the choice to accept the "bias" of the religious based instruction
or remove their child from the school!

It is ONLY the PUBLIC schools that will ALLOW for Parental involvement, including the option of NOT allowing your child to participate in that (said) curriculum.

In short it is the PUBLIC schools that allow the parental control and decision making about what their children are "indoctrinated" with!
NOT the private schools!

I have no issue (whatsoever) with your definition of indoctrination.
Schooling IS (by nature) indoctrination..

Which is WHY my children were in PUBLIC schools because I (as their Father!) was given the POWER to decide just exactly what sort of "instruction/indoctrination" my daughters were exposed to.

And there WERE (a couple) of instances wherein my children did NOT participate in some portion of the yearly "curriculum".

I HOPE I didn't do them HARM in NOT allowing them to participate in that part of their schooling!!
So far, I think not!

And bags, I'm off to bed. And I intend to eat some juicy nectar from between the hottest pair of legs I know of!
My long time partner (of 35+ years!)

I hope she gets half the pleasure out of it that I will!

Posted by laramiebob on 9/6/2021 10:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bruceleefan on 9/6/2021 5:13:00 PM (view original):
rsp first I'm full of ****, then when I provide actual evidence you get all defensive. I never once said it was horrible nor did I make any other judgement.

bob, I don't see any distinction. If it is part of the curriculum then it is forced. How is that "a long long way from"? It is exactly what I said it was.

Last attempt to interact with either of you:

The actual definition of indoctrination is:
"The process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically".

There is no mention of good or bad or right or wrong. The word has taken on negative connotations only in very recent history, but whether or not you agree with a teaching or not in no way determines what is or isn't "indoctrination".

BL fan.

You don't?? (see the difference in NOT being forced??)

Curriculum is just that. The "outline" of what information is going to be dealt with in the classroom.
I know of no school that FORCES ANY child to participate in ANY portion of the curriculum that the child's "parent's or guardians" object to.............
EXCEPT in certain RELIGIOUS based schools wherein the Parent (or Guardian) only has the choice to accept the "bias" of the religious based instruction
or remove their child from the school!

It is ONLY the PUBLIC schools that will ALLOW for Parental involvement, including the option of NOT allowing your child to participate in that (said) curriculum.

In short it is the PUBLIC schools that allow the parental control and decision making about what their children are "indoctrinated" with!
NOT the private schools!

I have no issue (whatsoever) with your definition of indoctrination.
Schooling IS (by nature) indoctrination..

Which is WHY my children were in PUBLIC schools because I (as their Father!) was given the POWER to decide just exactly what sort of "instruction/indoctrination" my daughters were exposed to.

And there WERE (a couple) of instances wherein my children did NOT participate in some portion of the yearly "curriculum".

I HOPE I didn't do them HARM in NOT allowing them to participate in that part of their schooling!!
So far, I think not!

Gotcha. I wasn't aware of that option in public schools, so my use of the word "forced" was inappropriate. Thanks for taking the time to elaborate and teach me something new. It is appreciated.

Posted by dahsdebater on 9/6/2021 5:39:00 PM (view original):
I always tell people to go look up what they're supposed to do with the female members of their households when they menstruate and then get back to me.

Yup! That's my go-to