There is literally no way to please everyone. Especially something like this. Its just the way it goes.

I'm on the side that it was a little too harsh. But that's just my opinion and I can see how CS arrived at this conclusion.

However, the biggest thing to take away is that cheating/loophole breaking/etc (whatever you want to call it) is being taken seriously and that's the most important thing from a big picture standpoint. If people know that CS will come down on them like a hammer, they'll be less likely to toe the line - and I think that's a good thing.

Hello all,

I haven't really chimed in since I got the boot, so I guess I will here. I don't intend on changing anyone's opinion that you've already made and obviously the punishment has already been handed down and is not going to change.

I don't believe what I did by informing recruits I wouldn't redshirt them was cheating. This is a mechanism that is (or was until this week) in the game. It makes sense to me that you would get slight recruiting credit for telling a recruit you won't redshirt him. You get recruiting credit for promising a recruit minutes, so it would make a certain amount of sense that you would get recruiting effort for telling him you won't redshirt him. I'm not saying it SHOULD work like that, but it's not crazy to think that would be intended. Like some other aspects of the game (for example, that all internationals will accept a redshirt), I figured this recruiting effort was not common knowledge. That doesn't mean I thought it was cheating or that nobody else knew about it. I just looked at it as a maneuver in the game that had been discovered and when Cimmy told me about it, I decided to incorporate it as a strategy. Never once did I think this went against the rules of the game or the spirit of the game. Never once did I think that I should limit using it to avoid getting "caught."

I honestly believe the informing of no redshirt is akin to other "tricks" of the game like redshirting a senior for extra cash/APs or (formerly) promising a start/minutes to an ineligible recruit that you knew you'd never have to follow through on.

I've seen a few arguments as to how it's different. Some I've seen are:

1) It was much a bigger advantage than those other "tricks." I'd disagree. Was it an advantage? Yes, that's why I did it. It wasn't really used for 5-star battles. It's helpful in unlocking secondary targets/backups but anyone who's played in D1 HD in recent years knows that just because you unlock a guy with your A+ prestige doesn't mean some B prestige team isn't going to come and test how much you're willing to commit to that guy. Again, the extra (roughly) 40 APs is not going to help you much in a battle when there could 1300 APs on both sides. Let me stress: it did help. It was an advantage. Not much bigger than those other things listed above though. The fact that I didn't use it more than I did is probably some evidence that I didn't view it as some magic bullet!

2) It must've helped a ton because of how successful those of us who were using it were. I'm not sure if it's possible now but if you look at our track records prior to the Inform of No Redshirt thing being discovered, we were all highly successful coaches. Really just as successful as after. Go look at Cimmy's Kentucky teams in Smith. Robinhood won who knows how many titles prior to this. I took over a C prestige Temple team and won a title six seasons later. Before ever informing any recruits that I wouldn't redshirt them. I wasn't some naturally amazing coach. When I first got to D1 I struggled for a bit. Couldn't get things up and running at Miami-Ohio way back when. I put in a lot time learning the game and yes, talking to my cousins about the game, and eventually got really good at it. So the Inform of No Redshirt helped. The fact that we won a ton while using it doesn't prove that it was a massive boost to our success because our success level was already really high.

3) It's different because nobody else knew about it. I really don't know what the other coaches all know. I'm not someone who reads or writes things on the forums. Before a couple days ago, I'm not sure I'd looked at a forum in like 15 years aside from when a new update to the game was posted and I imagine I did some forum reading when 3.0 first came around. Like I said, I figured the Inform of No Redshirt was not common knowledge. If you had told me 25% of D1 coaches were doing it, I wouldn't have been surprised. So I never mentioned it in the forums or the chat. I also never said, "Hey everyone, if you redshirt a senior you get their recruiting resources for two years." I didn't know, and still don't know, if that "trick" is common knowledge among HD players. I didn't share the knowledge publicly. I gained an advantage in recruiting by doing it. So is that cheating also? Again, I'm sure there are some who say it is. I'd say no.

Finally to address the relationship between me, Cimmy, and Robinhood. For one, if our goal was to collude and hide our relationships, it wouldn't have made much sense to play in the same conference and play each other twice a season. We all grew up Temple fans and A10 fans, so we eventually ended up there. As Cimmy was building up the St. Joe's program (after I was already established at Temple) we did battle for a couple recruits. But we also did try to steer clear of each other. Is that collusion? I'm sure some would say yes. I don't think so. I try to avoid battles with A+ schools. Cimmy ran Flex and I ran Triangle. If there was a 5-star near Philly with a Flex preference, I would assume Cimmy was going to prioritize him and I would look elsewhere. Duke and North Carolina were often overlapping in my hunting grounds in like Virginia and Maryland. I think I may have battled them a total of once or twice in like 30-some seasons. Those aren't the battles I want to fight. For whatever reason, I did end up in a lot of battles with theword at Boston College. I think he would tell you that, even in the last couple years, he probably beat me out more times than I beat him. Because, again, 40 extra APs were very unlikely to swing those battles. But anyway, if there are real-life friends or fathers/sons out there playing in the same world and level, I would assume they are trying not to battle each other for the same recruits much and I don't think that's collusion.

So yeah, that's how I saw it. Hope you all continue to enjoy the game. I'm pretty sure I'm done with it forever, for a variety of reasons, but maybe mostly just because 18 years feels like enough. I'll be sure to duck now in advance of all the bricks that will be thrown my way.

Posted by Benis on 11/3/2022 4:23:00 PM (view original):
There is literally no way to please everyone. Especially something like this. Its just the way it goes.

I'm on the side that it was a little too harsh. But that's just my opinion and I can see how CS arrived at this conclusion.

However, the biggest thing to take away is that cheating/loophole breaking/etc (whatever you want to call it) is being taken seriously and that's the most important thing from a big picture standpoint. If people know that CS will come down on them like a hammer, they'll be less likely to toe the line - and I think that's a good thing.

i agree with this... big picture CS took this seriously, investigated pretty thoroughly, and took meaningful action both to prevent future abuse, and punish current abuse. seems like most of us should at a minimum, be able to make peace with CS's activity here.

i think they did a pretty good job investigating a tricky issue quickly and even though i don't fully agree with the outcome, i definitely give them props for their efforts.

Posted by gillispie on 11/3/2022 3:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 11/3/2022 3:49:00 PM (view original):
I think robinhood410 has made me feel great about the circumstances with his words. I’m all for him returning. Based off what I see in the discord. But I feel like cimmy is still combative and I’m not as much on board with him as I am Robinhood. I know they are of the same bunch. But they are reacting totally different to the situation. And that’s fine.

just throwing my thoughts out there

people tend not to react well to being called a cheater, yelled at, berated, etc... i know you and i don't see eye to eye on this, but i have found more success personally winning hearts and minds with calm discourse than confrontation.

i agree that this situation here was too serious to handle offline between coaches, without involving CS. i'm not saying we should have done that here, at all. but one should only expect a cimmy-style reaction to come with the territory. i suspect he will come around some in time, when emotions have cooled. that is one more problem with the pitchfork style you encourage. it doesn't give time for emotions to cool and for heads to level.

If you don’t think I’m being more fair then I normally am, you’re not reading. You’re right that you and I don’t see eye to eye on a lot of things (but honestly that’s more for the show than anything). I’m being VERY open minded about this. I put myself in their shoes……
1) i get ****** back at first
2) I think about it a bit more
3) I listen
4) I view what dozens of others had to say
5) I make a judgement.

in this case I’d feel like, ok I get it. I see why the community is mad. I’d like to apologize, explain, and ask for forgiveness somewhat. Do I owe that to anyone? Of course not. But you guys are my gaming peers and you’re throwing fire at me. I now see why.

next step is to let others know that I get it.

cimmy is not on that at all. He’s still being defensive. So is the entire community wrong? Is CS wrong? Or is 2-5 people wrong? You tell me. From there, if one doesn’t know what to do and how to act, I don’t know what to tell ya.

if a Top-style answer comes with a pitchfork as some of you say, the fact that I can say ‘my bad’ guys if I screw up, should hold a LOT of weight with the community. Be human. Admit wrong. Move forward. Doogan’s post about ‘I disagree it was a big advantage’. Get real. We’ve documented 1000 reasons why it IS compared to his ONE that it isn’t. OWN UP, and it all ends. But the problem is, those who don’t, can’t fake it. They really can’t grasp why it’s an issue. And that’s fine. But they won’t get much love from us if they feel that way

i mean... cimmy is wrong, i think that's clear. i am just saying, people who are confronted about being wrong rarely react well. no matter the context. so we should sort of expect that and shouldn't judge them too harshly for being human.

i 100% agree with you that i feel better about giving a partial pass to any of the guys who show contrition. because frankly, i feel the same way, to an extent, in this very situation, and basically in any situation like this. but its also perfectly normal for folks in these spots to take a while to work through their anger, humiliation, and whatever else, to circle around to the contrition. i am just saying, i don't judge him too harshly, for still being standoff-ish, or whatever you want to call it. some time will likely improve that situation. no need for us to try to beat these guys into submission.

I assure you they will not circle around to contrition if they haven’t already.

Posted by topdogggbm on 11/3/2022 5:02:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie on 11/3/2022 3:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 11/3/2022 3:49:00 PM (view original):
I think robinhood410 has made me feel great about the circumstances with his words. I’m all for him returning. Based off what I see in the discord. But I feel like cimmy is still combative and I’m not as much on board with him as I am Robinhood. I know they are of the same bunch. But they are reacting totally different to the situation. And that’s fine.

just throwing my thoughts out there

people tend not to react well to being called a cheater, yelled at, berated, etc... i know you and i don't see eye to eye on this, but i have found more success personally winning hearts and minds with calm discourse than confrontation.

i agree that this situation here was too serious to handle offline between coaches, without involving CS. i'm not saying we should have done that here, at all. but one should only expect a cimmy-style reaction to come with the territory. i suspect he will come around some in time, when emotions have cooled. that is one more problem with the pitchfork style you encourage. it doesn't give time for emotions to cool and for heads to level.

If you don’t think I’m being more fair then I normally am, you’re not reading. You’re right that you and I don’t see eye to eye on a lot of things (but honestly that’s more for the show than anything). I’m being VERY open minded about this. I put myself in their shoes……
1) i get ****** back at first
2) I think about it a bit more
3) I listen
4) I view what dozens of others had to say
5) I make a judgement.

in this case I’d feel like, ok I get it. I see why the community is mad. I’d like to apologize, explain, and ask for forgiveness somewhat. Do I owe that to anyone? Of course not. But you guys are my gaming peers and you’re throwing fire at me. I now see why.

next step is to let others know that I get it.

cimmy is not on that at all. He’s still being defensive. So is the entire community wrong? Is CS wrong? Or is 2-5 people wrong? You tell me. From there, if one doesn’t know what to do and how to act, I don’t know what to tell ya.

if a Top-style answer comes with a pitchfork as some of you say, the fact that I can say ‘my bad’ guys if I screw up, should hold a LOT of weight with the community. Be human. Admit wrong. Move forward. Doogan’s post about ‘I disagree it was a big advantage’. Get real. We’ve documented 1000 reasons why it IS compared to his ONE that it isn’t. OWN UP, and it all ends. But the problem is, those who don’t, can’t fake it. They really can’t grasp why it’s an issue. And that’s fine. But they won’t get much love from us if they feel that way

Would you admit wrong if you didn't feel like you were wrong? I honestly don't think robinhood thinks it was wrong either, but he's a people pleaser, and the mob needs a sacrifice, so he's ready and willing. All 3 of us have truly been very open and honest with our statements about all of this, even as the accusations drifted from hacking the website for unlimited APs to being the same people to hiding that we know each other to colluding and hiding secrets from people to whatever the other outlandish things were. If you choose not to believe us, that's obviously your prerogative. If you choose to believe us and disagree, that's cool too. If you want to hate us and/or attribute all of our successes at this game to this one thing, go ahead. It's just wild how this whole thing went down.

Great point from Benis, gillespie, and topdog. The guys implicated in this need to take a break, cool off and come back when they're ready if they choose. Be respectful, apologize, and maybe the community comes around on you, but coming on the board to defend yourself is not buying you any sympathy.

Have to say I'm not surprised doogan and cimmy coming on here and trying to defend themselves. Like gillispie mentioned it's I think a way a lot of people would behave, but saying that this wasn't that big of a deal and trying to downplay this is incredible to me. If it was just 80 AP overall sure might not be the biggest difference, but we're talking about high prestige schools opening up recruits before others could. And the fact that they're stating it only helped with secondary recruits (which by the way is still a big deal) is just a lie. They're too good of coaches to know otherwise. I'm an A+ prestige and I always try to beat people to the punch if I can. It scares a lot of guys away so them saying that it doesn't affect the big time recruits is just not true.

If I can get on 10 guys before others do you basically pick whoever you'd like to go after from a much larger pool. See what schools are on who and make a decision from there. There might be 5 guys I want, but I can't get on them fast enough to keep others at bay so I basically have to choose who to battle from a smaller pool. That's a MASSIVE difference. Hell I'm sure they got some top recruits for basically free. Not to mention the fact that schools can see you're leading and battling no one (knowing you have a lot of resources at your disposal) so it scares them off even more.

This isn't just a one man redshirt glitch. This effects the whole makeup of not only your team but everyone else's. With 4 of them doing it in Smith it completely threw that world upside down and that's a fact. Go look at the talent in the draft boards (25 guys from 4 teams) and the amount of Final Fours and titles from these guys.

Heck I've been knocked out of the tourney 6 times by them since I've been at Arizona and Illinois. That's 6 title opportunities I lost.

Also I think they're all good coahes as they were before this and I'm not mad about the so called "collusion". I knew they all knew each other and there's all types of "collusion" throughout WIS. This community was built on telling other people about this game. You can't stop it so I've just always accepted it as a part of the game. My problem is them saying this wasn't a big deal when a WHOLE WORLD was affected by their actions.

Posted by cimmy426 on 11/3/2022 5:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 11/3/2022 5:02:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie on 11/3/2022 3:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 11/3/2022 3:49:00 PM (view original):
I think robinhood410 has made me feel great about the circumstances with his words. I’m all for him returning. Based off what I see in the discord. But I feel like cimmy is still combative and I’m not as much on board with him as I am Robinhood. I know they are of the same bunch. But they are reacting totally different to the situation. And that’s fine.

just throwing my thoughts out there

people tend not to react well to being called a cheater, yelled at, berated, etc... i know you and i don't see eye to eye on this, but i have found more success personally winning hearts and minds with calm discourse than confrontation.

i agree that this situation here was too serious to handle offline between coaches, without involving CS. i'm not saying we should have done that here, at all. but one should only expect a cimmy-style reaction to come with the territory. i suspect he will come around some in time, when emotions have cooled. that is one more problem with the pitchfork style you encourage. it doesn't give time for emotions to cool and for heads to level.

If you don’t think I’m being more fair then I normally am, you’re not reading. You’re right that you and I don’t see eye to eye on a lot of things (but honestly that’s more for the show than anything). I’m being VERY open minded about this. I put myself in their shoes……
1) i get ****** back at first
2) I think about it a bit more
3) I listen
4) I view what dozens of others had to say
5) I make a judgement.

in this case I’d feel like, ok I get it. I see why the community is mad. I’d like to apologize, explain, and ask for forgiveness somewhat. Do I owe that to anyone? Of course not. But you guys are my gaming peers and you’re throwing fire at me. I now see why.

next step is to let others know that I get it.

cimmy is not on that at all. He’s still being defensive. So is the entire community wrong? Is CS wrong? Or is 2-5 people wrong? You tell me. From there, if one doesn’t know what to do and how to act, I don’t know what to tell ya.

if a Top-style answer comes with a pitchfork as some of you say, the fact that I can say ‘my bad’ guys if I screw up, should hold a LOT of weight with the community. Be human. Admit wrong. Move forward. Doogan’s post about ‘I disagree it was a big advantage’. Get real. We’ve documented 1000 reasons why it IS compared to his ONE that it isn’t. OWN UP, and it all ends. But the problem is, those who don’t, can’t fake it. They really can’t grasp why it’s an issue. And that’s fine. But they won’t get much love from us if they feel that way

Would you admit wrong if you didn't feel like you were wrong? I honestly don't think robinhood thinks it was wrong either, but he's a people pleaser, and the mob needs a sacrifice, so he's ready and willing. All 3 of us have truly been very open and honest with our statements about all of this, even as the accusations drifted from hacking the website for unlimited APs to being the same people to hiding that we know each other to colluding and hiding secrets from people to whatever the other outlandish things were. If you choose not to believe us, that's obviously your prerogative. If you choose to believe us and disagree, that's cool too. If you want to hate us and/or attribute all of our successes at this game to this one thing, go ahead. It's just wild how this whole thing went down.

Thanks for clarifying that robinhoods “apology” was not genuine. That was certainly my suspicion.

And we only have numbers for the past 10 months.

I wonder, now, what other little glitches or tricks are out there?? I understand the complexity of the game, but glitches, tricks, or secret advantages shouldn't even exist. Or should be fixed quickly. Lately I've lost so many recruiting battles, while the favorite, makes me wonder what trick folks are using?

Posted by cra666 on 11/3/2022 6:03:00 PM (view original):
I wonder, now, what other little glitches or tricks are out there?? I understand the complexity of the game, but glitches, tricks, or secret advantages shouldn't even exist. Or should be fixed quickly. Lately I've lost so many recruiting battles, while the favorite, makes me wonder what trick folks are using?

Like anything in technology and coding, the programmers don't even realize there's an issue with some things until someone points it out. It's on the community to be diligent and report these issues. In cases like this one, the users should have checked if this was intended with CS. Maybe even brought it up in the forums. In the early days of WIS, the best part of the forums are the successful coaches sharing their knowledge with others. To this day I will still credit aejones post with getting me over the hump in success.

Posted by cimmy426 on 11/3/2022 5:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 11/3/2022 5:02:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie on 11/3/2022 3:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 11/3/2022 3:49:00 PM (view original):
I think robinhood410 has made me feel great about the circumstances with his words. I’m all for him returning. Based off what I see in the discord. But I feel like cimmy is still combative and I’m not as much on board with him as I am Robinhood. I know they are of the same bunch. But they are reacting totally different to the situation. And that’s fine.

just throwing my thoughts out there

people tend not to react well to being called a cheater, yelled at, berated, etc... i know you and i don't see eye to eye on this, but i have found more success personally winning hearts and minds with calm discourse than confrontation.

i agree that this situation here was too serious to handle offline between coaches, without involving CS. i'm not saying we should have done that here, at all. but one should only expect a cimmy-style reaction to come with the territory. i suspect he will come around some in time, when emotions have cooled. that is one more problem with the pitchfork style you encourage. it doesn't give time for emotions to cool and for heads to level.

If you don’t think I’m being more fair then I normally am, you’re not reading. You’re right that you and I don’t see eye to eye on a lot of things (but honestly that’s more for the show than anything). I’m being VERY open minded about this. I put myself in their shoes……
1) i get ****** back at first
2) I think about it a bit more
3) I listen
4) I view what dozens of others had to say
5) I make a judgement.

in this case I’d feel like, ok I get it. I see why the community is mad. I’d like to apologize, explain, and ask for forgiveness somewhat. Do I owe that to anyone? Of course not. But you guys are my gaming peers and you’re throwing fire at me. I now see why.

next step is to let others know that I get it.

cimmy is not on that at all. He’s still being defensive. So is the entire community wrong? Is CS wrong? Or is 2-5 people wrong? You tell me. From there, if one doesn’t know what to do and how to act, I don’t know what to tell ya.

if a Top-style answer comes with a pitchfork as some of you say, the fact that I can say ‘my bad’ guys if I screw up, should hold a LOT of weight with the community. Be human. Admit wrong. Move forward. Doogan’s post about ‘I disagree it was a big advantage’. Get real. We’ve documented 1000 reasons why it IS compared to his ONE that it isn’t. OWN UP, and it all ends. But the problem is, those who don’t, can’t fake it. They really can’t grasp why it’s an issue. And that’s fine. But they won’t get much love from us if they feel that way

Would you admit wrong if you didn't feel like you were wrong? I honestly don't think robinhood thinks it was wrong either, but he's a people pleaser, and the mob needs a sacrifice, so he's ready and willing. All 3 of us have truly been very open and honest with our statements about all of this, even as the accusations drifted from hacking the website for unlimited APs to being the same people to hiding that we know each other to colluding and hiding secrets from people to whatever the other outlandish things were. If you choose not to believe us, that's obviously your prerogative. If you choose to believe us and disagree, that's cool too. If you want to hate us and/or attribute all of our successes at this game to this one thing, go ahead. It's just wild how this whole thing went down.

It’s very rare for me that in a circumstance like this, where I see dozens of others freaking out, to not stop and think about things, and view thru their eyes. I just don’t see how you can actually feel that you weren’t wrong in any way shape or form. It does happen but it’s rare when 1 person is right and the other 99 are wrong. And after hearing all parties, I just don’t see a way to stand your ground THIS much, in your situation. I’d clearly see how I affected others. Doesn’t mean That you cheated us so bad that we all lost hundreds of dollars. But your decisions caused an impact. You just choose not to see it I am assuming

and again to be clear, I’m not pitchforking. I don’t think you’ve been ‘rude’ which I appreciate. And I’m glad you’re communicating with us. And in this case I’m not screaming out loud. I’m trying to be reasonable. If it’s life or death situation, I can tell you’re the type of guy I’d pal up with and we’d conquer the task at hand. But in a “game”, with people of all sorts and incomes of all sorts, I can’t paint a scenario where I don’t feel it’s wrong.

Definitely don’t hate you. I’m looking for a little understanding from you. I think it’s no secret that all you guys were at the top of the Smith world, and all “together”. However you’d like to word it. You don’t think it’s odd that in Smith, maybe the best 4 teams in the entire world are you 4? 4 that are connected, doing the same thing that no one else is doing? Do you really feel like you guys are the 4 best coaches in HD and that’s not a coincidence? (I’m really asking. Not being a jerk. If you feel that way, then why aren’t you the 4 best in all other worlds? Another coincidence?). You don’t find it odd that shoe has publicly questioned what’s going on in that A10? Or Mully left HD entirely because something is different about the A10? You don’t think it’s odd that I’m ‘decent’ everywhere else in HD but where I’m right next to you guys at UConn, I can’t even get an A+ team up to par after like 10-12 seasons? (Wow reading that one out loud, I’m terrible!)? You don’t find it odd that everyone else in the room thinks similar things, and then when a loophole is discovered, the ONLY people doing it are the 4 of you? THAT’S ODD.

I’m not actually debating how good or bad you guys are. I know you’re very good. And I’m not focusing on “IF” you feel you were allowed to do it. I don’t care about that. I’m talking about the actual action of the ‘trick’ you were doing, that only 4 of you were doing. If I was in a conference (or a household) and there were only 4 of us coaches doing the senior redshirt (as an example), and we happened to be the best 4 teams in a given world and likely talked about it at the dinner table, my guilt would say “geez guys, something about this is ridiculously powerful. And we look odd right now”. There’s NO WAY I could have the mindset of “welp it’s in the game and no one else figured it out, that’s on the other 300 coaches in this world, not us”. Play basketball! Don’t do weird stuff. Don’t try to find something new that others don’t know. Just play normal.

sorry Gil, I wrote one as long as yours!

Before I post this, I just want to say, respect to the current CS people, and disrespect to the previous CS. Sorry, that's the only people I lost a little bit of respect for in this whole ordeal. The current CS, I believe you've reacted appropriately, and had to the way you did under the initial outrage before the investigation conclusion game out.

rugburn, that's funny that I was just about to post this coming part before you did, one of the craziest things of all this, is that they did alert CS, isn't that wild? And if one user messages CS and say, "hey, can I use this?" and they give the weak response they did. Then guess what? If they're committing collusion as you all say, then that would lead one to assume then they're probably going to tell their buddies something like "hey guys I reached out to customer support to tell them about this glitch in hoops dynasty, it's pretty wild, and they didn't seem very concerned about it. All you do is you inform a recruit that you're going to redshirt them, let a cycle go through, the next cycle, inform them you are NOT going to redshirt them, and boom. This looks like the only way to have a positive interaction with a recruit without having to use Attention Points. You guys should try it. I can't believe I didn't know this before. Everyone else is probably doing it."


Yes I know *previous CS group* included the lightest of all "alert us if it happens again?" in there but really? You all wouldn't assume if you were the "cheaters" (lol about that, are they????) then *previous CS* would try to monitor it on those users? CS was told. Also, a lot of the issue is that the forum is called CHEATERS CONFIRMED. Though some of us waited until we knew what the "cheating" (rofl) was, I think all of us assumed the worst at the beginning, that they were cheating. Understandable reaction honestly with the data Benis gave at the beginning of the thread. But I think every page of this thread, everyone on THE OTHER side of the debate convinces me more and more toward thinking less and less that these guys should be (and now should have) been punished. Again I don't blame the current CS at all. Shout out to you for appeasing the masses the best that you could. I have mad respect for how quickly it was handled on your end.

It's funny to watch where all the blame went. And meanwhile many years of these guys, who got their records removed, have a good bit of their lives just wasted. And on top of that they lose all of the numbers that had nothing to do with this glitch because they were before was before *the game began (I want to be clear to not say "before they began using") glitching. And that shouldn't be taken lightly, from the looks of the last few days you guys are just as obsessed as I am. *Previous CS* I'm sorry, I used to respect the hell out of you, you're the real villain in this. I'm getting weird high school vibes. This is legit the Scarlet Letter all over again.

edit: updated some spelling errors

These guys may have lost their records but a lot of other users didn’t have a chance to improve theirs because of what they did for a number of years.
I don’t understand the sympathy here. It seems misplaced.