Quote: Originally Posted By jskenner on 11/04/2009zhawks, not to speak for daalter, but I think we all agree that the economy is a factor, but he contends (and I agree) that price is a small factor. In other words, there are less customers able/willing to pay $12 or so per season to play, but very few of them would return (or up the number of teams) if the price was dropped to $10, or $8, or $6. After all, if $12 is not warranted within a financial circumstance, half that is unlikely to be

Exactly.

Quote: Originally Posted By dalter on 11/04/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By jskenner on 11/04/2009
zhawks, not to speak for daalter, but I think we all agree that the economy is a factor, but he contends (and I agree) that price is a small factor. In other words, there are less customers able/willing to pay $12 or so per season to play, but very few of them would return (or up the number of teams) if the price was dropped to $10, or $8, or $6. After all, if $12 is not warranted within a financial circumstance, half that is unlikely to be.

Exactly

Again, I feel you guys are speculating just as much as I am here. Regardless I don't see any changes occuring, just speaking my mind.

I would respond, but I have officially hired js as my spokesman on this matter.

Quote: Originally Posted By dalter on 11/04/2009I would respond, but I have officially hired js as my spokesman on this matter.

Lol, what is the going rate for spokesmen on WIS?

Again I am not saying you guys are completely wrong. I agree the impact may not be much at all. Just speaking from my experiance.

Quote: Originally posted by dalter on 11/04/2009$11 for 45 days? Maybe I'm living the high life and didn't even know it, but I don't think that's a lot in any sense of the word. And no, I don't think reducing it from $11 to $8 or $9 would make any sort of real difference. The problems are in the engine and w. rewards points (which was a main factor in clearing out DII/DIII). If those two were fixed (heck, one of those), you'd see a spike.

I don't understand how you can dismiss price as a factor on one hand and claim reward points are a major factor on the other. Reward points are simply a complex means of lowering the price. OTOH maybe you are saying something about the psychology of reward points versus a lower price.

Personally I'd rather see no reward points and an equivalent price reduction.

Quote: Originally posted by _hannibal_ on 11/04/2009

Quote: Originally posted by dalter on 11/04/2009$11 for 45 days? Maybe I'm living the high life and didn't even know it, but I don't think that's a lot in any sense of the word. And no, I don't think reducing it from $11 to $8 or $9 would make any sort of real difference. The problems are in the engine and w. rewards points (which was a main factor in clearing out DII/DIII). If those two were fixed (heck, one of those), you'd see a spike.

I don't understand how you can dismiss price as a factor on one hand and claim reward points are a major factor on the other. Reward points are simply a complex means of lowering the price. OTOH maybe you are saying something about the psychology of reward points versus a lower price.

Personally I'd rather see no reward points and an equivalent price reduction.

see thats where you're wrong, reward points are not a reduction in price. Reward Points are a "prize". They make it "possible" to play for free. When, in fact, only 1 or 2 users per division will actually play for free. Simply the allure of possibly playing for free will attract WAY more business than lowering the price.

And the game is WORTH $13. Price is maybe 2% of the issue of how dead HD is. Including recruiting, say the average user spends a total of 5min/day on the game. Thats almost 4 hours of "entertainment" for the bargain price of $13 (actually $12). Simply put, price is a non-factor and lowering prices would do nothing but cost WIS money.

I think you probably had to be around when the rewards points fiasco went down to understand. But basically, a large group of coaches that had carried long-time DII and DIII programs felt angered and slighted when rewards points were dramatically reduced.

And in addition to that particular incident, it also contributed to the overall feeling that WIS simply wasn't very interested in the happiness of its long-time customers. Sending that sort of message isn't exactly a formula for customer retention.

Quote: Originally Posted By cthomas22255 on 11/04/2009

Quote: Originally posted by Rails on 11/03/2009
I rather doubt it's the price or reward points. Moy mentioned $13/season. It's more like $11 because everyone receives a small credit just for playing. If $11 every 45 days is setting people back, then it's the game. $11? That's chump change. It's a lunch, a couple of Caribou Coffees. If it was important enough or there was enough interest, I'm sure the problem solvers of the world would figure out a way to save $11 a month. Heck you could use coupons for a few days and wouldn't even need to change buying habits if people are so strapped for $11. Do you know how many ways someone could come up with $11 a month? You can't even wipe your *** with $11. It ain't the money.

If $11 was "chump change" then the worlds would all be full.
Economics 101 people, if you're not selling all your slots then your price is too high. The earlier poster had it correct, the marginal cost of a team is basically $0. So, they can stand to lower their price significantly.
They have either underestimated the elasticity of demand for their product or don't know what that means.

Economics 101 people!!! If you don't want to lower the price of a product you can always move the demand curve. WIS should be out there marketing their product to fill worlds. Thats the problem imo.

My buddy daalty mentioned how those that remember the change in reward points feel slighted. I don't doubt it. Can you imagine how slighted people would feel if wis dropped the price to $8-9 dollars, the worlds fill some more and then they raise it to $12.99 again? Trust me when I say HD coaches won't forget the pprice hike and start cutting teams again.

Price is not the issue. The reward points aren't either. Thing is that us vets remember the days of a ton of rewards and we feel slighted... at some point we'll get over it once the game is exciting again. That said, newbs have never known the old rewards system and my guess is that not knowing it really means reward points are not the reason they don't stick around (DII, or join DIII). It's not rewards.

Wis needs an overhaul of the current game, a well tested overhaul, that is more challenging and more exciting. Seble is working on it as I type this. This could mean more control as coaches (without drastically increasing time spent on the game), better and more precise pbp/end of game logic, etc. Maybe a cosmetic redesign as well.

It's not price, Its not rewards. I think it's lack of marketing #1 for sure... maybe we could suggest some simple outlets to market the game (and I'll get them to seble). I think another problem is the way this game can get too simple for us vets as well (I don't even gameplan anymore, I only tweak as needed if my team is struggling)... why don't you guys suggest some engine changes as well. I'll get them to seble and report back.

I think it starts with the poor/non-existent marketing...then the other items may creep in and have an effect on a coach sticking around or adding teams.

Can anyone name a single website where they see HD promoted? Or any WIS sim game?

Price is a huge factor. For people who enjoy the game 12 dollars isn't ****. I work at a gas station and I can easily afford the 50-60 dollars a year. Thats not even 1/4th of a weekly pay check. Now, for new guys who don't know about the game I don't see many just tossing around 12+ bucks every month or so to learn a game that they view as a fantasy basketball type thing. It took me 4 seasons to get the hang of it and start enjoying it. If it wasn't for the free seasons I had I would not have played more then 2 seasons because of the cost. I think if there was a way for new coaches to play for cheap/free for a few seasons (maybe in there own world, with slightly less options, but enough to still learn?) and get the hang of it you can get new customers who will not only pay the 12 dollars, but sign up and be around for a while in the big boy worlds.

Quote: Originally posted by jdno on 11/04/2009I think it starts with the poor/non-existent marketing...then the other items may creep in and have an effect on a coach sticking around or adding teams.

Can anyone name a single website where they see HD promoted? Or any WIS sim game?

centsports.com

Quote: Originally Posted By furry_nipps on 11/04/2009Price is a huge factor. For people who enjoy the game 12 dollars isn't ****. I work at a gas station and I can easily afford the 50-60 dollars a year. Thats not even 1/4th of a weekly pay check. Now, for new guys who don't know about the game I don't see many just tossing around 12+ bucks every month or so to learn a game that they view as a fantasy basketball type thing. It took me 4 seasons to get the hang of it and start enjoying it. If it wasn't for the free seasons I had I would not have played more then 2 seasons because of the cost. I think if there was a way for new coaches to play for cheap/free for a few seasons (maybe in there own world, with slightly less options, but enough to still learn?) and get the hang of it you can get new customers who will not only pay the 12 dollars, but sign up and be around for a while in the big boy worlds.

then its not price, its value. Like rails said - if you enjoy the game you can find a way to pay $12 per team every 45 days. cut out a few days of starbucks. bring your lunch to work twice in 45 days. It's only $12.

Quote: Originally posted by jskenner on 11/04/2009I'm trying to remember my Econ 101 class back in 1986.  There was a concept (I think it was price elasticity) where the quantity demanded of some goods/services was highly tied to price, and the quantity of others was not.  The price of items considered more of a luxury (for instance, tickets to sports events) might see an 8% drop in quantity demanded in response to a 10% price increase (high elasticity), whereas items considered to be necessities would show much less drop in quantity demanded for a similar price increase.  Even though HD seasons are seemingly a luxury, the fact that the price is relatively small within most of our overall budgets, produces low elasticity.  If there are any economics guys out there, feel free to clean up my argument.

Elasticity is determined by two things:
1. Availability of substitutes.
2. % of income that it takes to buy the good.

So, your argument is using #2 in saying that demand for WIS is relatively inelastic. If that's the case then a firm can increase its revenue by increasing its price. That would be, say, chapter 5.

The problem is, however, is that you learn in Chapter 10 that a firm in a competitive market has to decide out how much to produce: A firm produces all units for which marginal revenue is greater than marginal cost.

The marginal revenue from each additional customer is about $11. The marginal cost for adding an additional customer is about $0. If WIS wants to add customers (increase output) it is going to have to lower the price. The marginal benefit of playing a season in HD is less than $11 to some. If WIS wants to add those customers, as economics says they should, it should charge a lower price.

Quote: Originally Posted By cthomas22255 on 11/04/2009

Quote: Originally posted by jskenner on 11/04/2009
I'm trying to remember my Econ 101 class back in 1986. There was a concept (I think it was price elasticity) where the quantity demanded of some goods/services was highly tied to price, and the quantity of others was not. The price of items considered more of a luxury (for instance, tickets to sports events) might see an 8% drop in quantity demanded in response to a 10% price increase (high elasticity), whereas items considered to be necessities would show much less drop in quantity demanded for a similar price increase. Even though HD seasons are seemingly a luxury, the fact that the price is relatively small within most of our overall budgets, produces low elasticity. If there are any economics guys out there, feel free to clean up my argument.

Elasticity is determined by two things:
1. Availability of substitutes.
2. % of income that it takes to buy the good.

So, your argument is using #2 in saying that demand for WIS is relatively inelastic. If that's the case then a firm can increase its revenue by increasing its price. That would be, say, chapter 5.

The problem is, however, is that you learn in Chapter 10 that a firm in a competitive market has to decide out how much to produce: A firm produces all units for which marginal revenue is greater than marginal cost.

The marginal revenue from each additional customer is about $11. The marginal cost for adding an additional customer is about $0. If WIS wants to add customers (increase output) it is going to have to lower the price. The marginal benefit of playing a season in HD is less than $11 to some. If WIS wants to add those customers, as economics says they should, it should charge a lower price....

....unless those customers looking for a lower price can't find the website. WIS needs to advertise and market more, or at least more effectively. advertising done correctly is not truely an expense (or more acurately stated, it's a good expense). It brings in additional revenue to wis, fills the worlds, and makes this game more enjoyable (than just having simai wastelands in DII and DIII).

Also - I doubt the marginal costs of additional coaches is 100%. More custs means more cust service needs (i.e. more employees) and more users on this site could mean addition server costs but I'm not a behind the scenes website techie so I could be wrong here.

Btw - well written and thoughful response.

Something else people seem to be forgetting -- the point is to maximize profits, which in this case is aligned with maximizing revenue, not to maximize the number of customers. Say you have a current customer base of 1000 at $11 per for $11000 in revenue. You don't lower the price to $10 if you project you will attract 10 new customers as that leads to less revenue ($10100). If you project you will attract 200 new customers then you do it. OTOH, it may be that you are on the other side of the curve and raising prices is the way to go. If raising the price to $15 drops 200 customers, you still have $12000 in revenue and you are ahead.

As to the rewards points, the customers that dropped their teams because they weren't earning rewards points anymore weren't generating as much revenue as other customers. So the bottom line may not be hurt very much by WIS driving them away. I know the naysayers will claim otherwise, but assuming that WIS is motivated as a typical business I think it is a safe conclusion.