Posted by zbrent716 on 7/14/2012 11:39:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 7/14/2012 11:12:00 PM (view original):
I'm not talking about anything from a pure numbers standpoint, I'm talking about raw ability to dominate a game.  That's generally a "prime" sort of a thing anyway, so I don't think it's too early to talk about LeBron in that sense.  He's not likely to get any better than he is right now.

If you're really talking about raw ability to dominate a game (your words), then Wilt is *really* #1. The NBA rules were changed just to slow him down and reduce that dominance. You won't ever see that with LeBron.

so true. 

If you took all the players in the history of the game, there would be more people like Wilt than like Lebron.  If you're talking about playing a game against one another, you have to compare across generations.

The one thing I have learned in all my years arguing about sports, the most immovable objects are Jordan nostalgics.  No one is in his league and no one ever will be. Even suggesting it is blasphemous and mildly criminal.

Who are the other players like Wilt, that dominated the game to such a degree?

Posted by tianyi7886 on 7/15/2012 12:40:00 AM (view original):
Who are the other players like Wilt, that dominated the game to such a degree?

Here is the complete list:

You guys are both very intentionally missing the point, and I'm fairly certain you're both smart enough to know it.  I'm not remotely old enough to have seen Wilt play live, but I've watched plenty of full games of his (mostly playoffs).  As I mentioned previously, for the sake of this conversation I am absolutely NOT going to "normalize" to era.  Yes, Wilt was dominant.  He was a new kind of player, and the idea of the dominant low post scorer was still very new when Wilt was in his prime.  Do you honestly believe Wilt would be the same kind of dominant in today's NBA?  I don't. I think he'd be very good, very likely the best center in the NBA.  But if you watch Wilt in his prime and Kareem in his prime it seems to me that Wilt's moves don't even come close.  He got by on strength, but in today's NBA he wouldn't overpower everyone to nearly the same degree.  Certainly didn't have the strength of Shaq, and I wouldn't like Wilt very much in that matchup.  In fact, I think Chamberlain would have a hard time scoring effectively against Dik, who was always considered good but not great.  Any strong, defensively capable center could really slow down his game.  There has never been an era in NBA history in which Michael Jordan or LeBron James wouldn't be dominant.  Right now Wilt in his prime would likely go for 20-22 ppg, maybe 12 rebounds.  Those are similar to Kareem's career averages.  Saying that because Wilt dominated the game unlike anyone else in history and saying that he is the best player in the history of the game are not necessarily the same thing.

Put mostly simply, if you put Wilt in today's NBA do you believe he would dominate as much as LeBron?  Do you believe he would be the same kind of unique talent?  I don't.  Would Jordan be?  Hell yes.

Again, neither of us have watched Wilt in his prime, so the only thing we can look at are his numbers. His numbers were head and shoulders above anyone that has ever played this game, and his record has held up for 40 years. That speaks volume. No doubt Lebron is a great player, probably one of the best to play the game, but to say Lebron's talent transcends generations while Wilt wouldn't even be the top C in today's game is ridiculous. 

Heck, if Lebron is the truly the best ever to play (barring MJ, apparently from the looks of your posts), how come he just won his first ring? Where was this godlike figure back in his Cavs days, or even last season?

Not trying to knock Lebron here, but to say that Wilt is a dime a dozen when compared to Lebron is a travesty. 

Here are some highlights of Wilt. No doubt he dominated everyone under the rim, but if you watch the whole clip, you will discover that the man wasn't a one dimensional dunker like Blake Griffin or Dwight Howard. He also has a nice 8-12 ft fadeaway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLrMw3vvhQw

Posted by dahsdebater on 7/15/2012 1:45:00 AM (view original):
You guys are both very intentionally missing the point, and I'm fairly certain you're both smart enough to know it.  I'm not remotely old enough to have seen Wilt play live, but I've watched plenty of full games of his (mostly playoffs).  As I mentioned previously, for the sake of this conversation I am absolutely NOT going to "normalize" to era.  Yes, Wilt was dominant.  He was a new kind of player, and the idea of the dominant low post scorer was still very new when Wilt was in his prime.  Do you honestly believe Wilt would be the same kind of dominant in today's NBA?  I don't. I think he'd be very good, very likely the best center in the NBA.  But if you watch Wilt in his prime and Kareem in his prime it seems to me that Wilt's moves don't even come close.  He got by on strength, but in today's NBA he wouldn't overpower everyone to nearly the same degree.  Certainly didn't have the strength of Shaq, and I wouldn't like Wilt very much in that matchup.  In fact, I think Chamberlain would have a hard time scoring effectively against Dik, who was always considered good but not great.  Any strong, defensively capable center could really slow down his game.  There has never been an era in NBA history in which Michael Jordan or LeBron James wouldn't be dominant.  Right now Wilt in his prime would likely go for 20-22 ppg, maybe 12 rebounds.  Those are similar to Kareem's career averages.  Saying that because Wilt dominated the game unlike anyone else in history and saying that he is the best player in the history of the game are not necessarily the same thing.

Put mostly simply, if you put Wilt in today's NBA do you believe he would dominate as much as LeBron?  Do you believe he would be the same kind of unique talent?  I don't.  Would Jordan be?  Hell yes.

Yes, Wilt in his prime, playing today, would dominate more than LeBron.

He might only hit 50% of his FT, but if he played with today's refs, he'd shoot 40 FT a game and foul out the opposing 4 and 5 on a nightly basis. The way to defend Wilt was to beat the **** out of him (way more than Hack-a-Shaq ever got). And refs, by and large, let it happen. That was the equalizer for Wilt's strength (and yes, he had as much strength as anyone, including Shaq). Today's NBA is built around building up the star, not bringing him down to the level of everyone else. Even if Wilt didn't get any superstar calls, and the game was just called straight up, he'd dominate today's game.

Was Wilt stronger than anyone else playing basketball during his era? Yes. But he's also stronger than the guys playing now. And beyond that, he wasn't only power - don't mistake him for an early version of Shaq. With the possible exception of Hakeem, his footwork was arguably the best ever for a big man, and when he was asked to pass, he cut his scoring by 10 points (down to only ~24 ppg) and collected assists instead (630 in 66-67 and 702 (league leader) in 67-68). For the sake of comparison, LeBron James has cracked 600 assists once (651 in 09-10) and has never been higher than 5th on the league.

Do me a favor, before you make the claim that Wilt just got by on strength.

Watch a young Wilt here, and an old Wilt here (some fantastic footage of older Wilt vs prime Kareem and their back and forth).

Don't just look at the dunks, but watch him run, jump, handle the ball, hit turnaround fade away jump shots off glass and finger rolls, and block the sky hook. If you watch those and still think Wilt was just Shaq light, I don't know what to tell you.

Someone in this thread just lost all their credibility in the last two pages. 

yyyeeeeeeaaaaah.   If Shaq had been able to pass or shoot like that he'd have seven championships himself.   I'm sorry but that athletic guy with a near - seven foot wingspan I think would be able to compete just fine and dandy with modern players, thank you very much.

remember Wilt was also a great track & field guy.  He won the Big 8 high jump three years in a row.

Imagine present day Dwight Howard.  Add two inches of height and 25 pounds of muscle.  Then add 6-8" of vertical.

Posted by Iguana1 on 7/15/2012 9:34:00 AM (view original):
remember Wilt was also a great track & field guy.  He won the Big 8 high jump three years in a row.

Imagine present day Dwight Howard.  Add two inches of height and 25 pounds of muscle.  Then add 6-8" of vertical.

then add the heart of a champion

certainly one part of his anatomy was a champion

As for LeBron not getting a championship with the Cavs, no one past or present was getting that terrible Cavs team a championship. Not Jordan, not Wilt, not Bird, not Magic, not Mikan, not Teen Wolf, not a team with a bunch of flubber on their shoes. No one.

I think flubber and the Teen Wolf could get it done

Posted by dacj501 on 7/15/2012 12:53:00 PM (view original):
I think flubber and the Teen Wolf could get it done

+1