This new engine sure rocks. I can't get a low IQ player with low def to run press for more then 15 minutes before fouling out.

Press fouling logic definitely needs to be looked at.  FT explosions are deciding too many games, inferior teams are winning games at the FT line, and getting to the line (and getting the other team in foul trouble) seems to have become by far the most important thing in HD. With the HD stamina system, getting even one or two guys in foul trouble dooms your team(especially with the press).

Sometimes the FT disparities mystify me too, even when both teams are pressing. What causes one team to shoot so many more FTs than the other?

http://www.whatifsports.com/hd/GameResults/BoxScore.aspx?gid=5890682

Rowan is good, but 44-13 FT advantage for Rowan~playing slowdown~ despite similar ath/sp, def, bh(much better actually), stam, IQs for Greensboro. Not a matchup thing iMO, the FTs were spread throughout their lineup. 19 of the 45 Rowan FG attempts were 3 point shots, why so many fouls againt a jumpshooting team? Greensboro only took 11 of 53 FGA as 3 pointers, yet only got to the line 13 times. Both teams pressed, neither got more tired than the other. Why the FT parade for Rowan, and so few for Greensboro? I'm baffled by the fouling in this engine...it seems way too arbitrary and volatile. And I like the new engine otherwise.

www.whatifsports.com/hd/GameResults/BoxScore.aspx?gid=5891360

Somehow in the final minutes of this game, I wind up in a halfcourt/zone 0 defense. My team is SUPPOSED to be in a fullcourt press when losing late, and you can see with roughly 3 min. left that I, indeed, make that switch for one possession. After that, I get reverted back to the HC/Z defense, but not back to the -4 positioning that was being played throughout the second half, but instead get an HC/Z 0 for the remainder of the game.

Obviously, I'm getting my butt kicked, so it matters not in the overall scheme of the result, but getting thrown into a late-game defense that I've not requested under regular, losing OR when winning conditions is somewhat disconcerting. Ticket sent, but others might want to review their late-game defenses and see if they're actually getting what they're set for.

P.S. -- The 0-for-17 brickathon for my 42 percent 3-pt. shooting team was a nice touch here too ;) 

http://www.whatifsports.com/hd/GameResults/BoxScore.aspx?gid=5891608

Two of the best teams in Wooden D3.  Both with plenty of vets, good press IQs.  40-minute game yields 77 total fouls, 105 foul shots, 6 players fouled out (including 5 from Beloit), 6 more players with 4 fouls each.  One player fouled out in 10 minutes, another in 16.

For too long FCP teams got away playing with horrible defensive ratings. They created turnovers with speed and ATH but didnt suffer any consequesnces.

NOW teams like Amherst with crappy DEF ratings are actuall being called for excessive fouling. I think its a great change. Now if you want to play the press without 30 fouls per game then you also need to be able to play soem decent defense.

Many of the "excessive fouling" links on here are FCP teams with crap DEF ratings. I havent seen many of these games with Man or Zone teams.

BlueS, I especially love that Beloit called 5 timeouts in the first half and Amherst called 4 timeouts in the first half--9 total--presumably all to enhance execution chances, maintain possessons, avoid turnovers, stop a run, etc. 

Beloit uses their last timeout with 15:49 to play and Amherst burns thru their timeouts with 10:00 to play.

Interesting hypothesis, mullycj, and true that Amherst has plenty of guys with low DEF (and Beloit has some too).  Agreed also that DEF should indeed have a greater impact under the new engine than under the old one (presumably on both FG% yielded and PF committed).

However, in the game in question, the "non-terrible" DEF players (which I defined as anyone with DEF>=35) fouled at almost the exact same rate as the "terrible" DEF players: one foul every 5.3 minutes for the non-terrible guys, one foul every 5.1 minutes for the terrible guys. 

Based on that (admittedly small sample size), it doesn't seem that the presence of a large number of terrible DEF players is the primary cause for the massive number of fouls in that game.  Therefore, I still think the Amherst-Beloit game suggests a more basic problem - too many fouls by pressing teams in the new engine, regardless of DEF rating.

I've got one of those "old-engine" press teams (high speed, mediocre def) and noticed the same thing spruce, it would be one thing if the press fouling was being committed by the low defense guys, or because of a bad matchup... but I'm seeing fouling up and down the lineup regardless of individual def or IQ ratings, The FTs seem widely distributed on the other team too, regardless of how good the offensive players are.

Turnovers and steals are also way down.

On the flipside, the lower def. ratings don't seem to be having a negative effect on FG %. I'm holding opponents to .408 from the field, but they have outshot me 181-100 at the FT line.

http://www.whatifsports.com/hd/GameResults/BoxScore.aspx?gid=5815690

Haltime adjustments with this engine are a mess. I've run into several games like above where a team moved to a more positive defense when the opponent has only made a couple of three pt baskets in the half.

Its like the engine is looking at 3PT shooting % and thinking they have to move and guard the perimeter when the opponent goes 1 for 2 and is at 50%.

I case anyone doubted how fcked up the half time adjustment logic is.

We moved from a -5 to a -3 defense at halftime after the opponent made 0 3 pters in the 1st half.

That's ok .....it was only a sweet 16 game that got fcked up in this beta test season.

http://www.whatifsports.com/hd/GameResults/BoxScore.aspx?gid=5895659

PS - it appears the FCP still works for the right teams
.

He didn't take a single 3pter and you moved from -5 to -3?! Holy crap ... that really is f'd up.

Any word on if seble is actually looking at this stuff? 

I'm assuming he is, but I think we're past the point of wondering if it's working properly.  There are things that need to be fixed, such as halftime adjustments, that we really don't need to wait on anymore.

I know a couple of veteran coaches who are close to calling it quits - people who stuck through the "potential" problems - and that really is a shame.

Posted by mullycj on 6/30/2010 10:35:00 AM (view original):
For too long FCP teams got away playing with horrible defensive ratings. They created turnovers with speed and ATH but didnt suffer any consequesnces.

NOW teams like Amherst with crappy DEF ratings are actuall being called for excessive fouling. I think its a great change. Now if you want to play the press without 30 fouls per game then you also need to be able to play soem decent defense.

Many of the "excessive fouling" links on here are FCP teams with crap DEF ratings. I havent seen many of these games with Man or Zone teams.

i agree that def needed to play a bigger role in the press. but the problem is, reasonably quality defensive teams are having the same problem. for example, my best player, a guard, on my tark d2 team last year (who was surrounded by the most talented team IMO) averaged 2.8 fouls per game despite ratings of 80 ath, 100 spd, 44 defense and 99 stamina (a+ press iq most of the season).

this year, the same team, who i would expect to be a top team, is averaging 20.7 fouls per game. of the 5 starters, the 3 guards are at avg 63 ath, 95 spd, 59 def, 90 sta, a iq. the 2 bigs are at avg 69 ath, 59 spd, 36 def, 94 sb, 87 sta, a iq. im not sure what more one could want for a d2 team, i know in the new engine def should be a high priority than in the old, but i would think the ath, spd, and sb to go with those defense ratings would be more than sufficient. 20.7 fouls per game is brutal.... the reason my team lost last year in the tourney is because within like 5 minutes my two top scoring guards, (the guy in the first paragraph and a 34 ath, 94 spd, 62 def guy) were both in foul trouble. puts you in pretty bad shape when your advantage against the other team is a massive advantage in your guards and your bigs are about even. not sure how a pressing team with a 30 spd avg advantage over the opposing starting guards can have so much trouble not fouling??

i am basically ok with the overall concept of increased fouls. but, the foul rate of bigs and guards is totally out of whack, IMO. bigs fouling more is fine, but when you watch college BB top notch bigs get in foul trouble many times more often than top quality guards. i personally think a foul trouble guard should lose a little bit of his edge defensively and decrease his chance of fouling substantially.

billy I like the measured response to mullys statement about defense and the press. I have to agree fcp teams that have high defensive ratings and good ath/speed are still fouling to much since at least the 6/16 update. I am quite dissapointed just not very vocal. Please seble look over the extensive data you can collect over the last 2 weeks and respond to this. 1) How much are fcp teams fouling per game tha actual number of fouls. 2) How much were those teams fouling prior to 6/16. 3) what rate was the increase. 4) Did you apply the template to all defenses or just pressing teams on 6/16. Thank you

Well, I'm just not seeing it guys. Six of the top ten ranked teams in DII Smith use the FCP so it can't be hurting their results TOO much.
Here are the top FCP teams in DII Smith and their fouls per game. None of these results look too bizarre to me. If nothing else it proves you can run FCP AND keep your fouls down.

#1 Stonehill - 19 FPG http://www.whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/Stats.aspx?tid=4988
#2 New Haven - 17 FPG http://www.whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/Stats.aspx?tid=5602
#4 Bluefield St - 18 FPG http://www.whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/Stats.aspx?tid=5676
#5 Loch Haven - 16 FPG http://www.whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/Stats.aspx?tid=5623
#7 Valdosta St - 16 FPG http://www.whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/Stats.aspx?tid=4917
#8 Northern St - 16 FPG http://www.whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/Stats.aspx?tid=4945

The other non FCP Teams
#3 Oakland City -16 FPG
#6 Pitt, Johnstown - 15 FPG
#9 Lake Superior St - 13 FPG
#10 Cal State Poly - 16 FPG

So in this group of talent the pressing teams average 2 more fouls per game. I don't find that excessive at all.