Posted by snafu4u on 12/19/2016 6:28:00 PM (view original):

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 12/19/2016 6:17:00 PM (view original):
The point is that there is no such thing as being good at craps, you just play "right." Just like recruiting in this game. You can't be good at recruiting anymore, you can only play it the "right" way.

This

This is really well put, at least for high DI.

In Knight recruiting, I'm in multiple battles where I'm VH. How will it go? Will I win them all -- will I win none? Who knows? Will I learn anything for next season from a strategic perspective? Nope, other than "get to VH, hope for the best."

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 12/19/2016 6:30:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/19/2016 6:28:00 PM (view original):
No, I'm arguing that you'll accept a game result that shouldn't happen but whine about losing a recruiting battle. It's the same concept. You do everything you can to tilt the scales in your favor. Then the program runs and gives you the outcome.

The difference is that teams and players can have off nights which accounts for a REASON to utilize RNG. There is no reason to use RNG for recruiting.

The only thing RNG does in recruiting is help people that are bad at the game.

Because 18 y/o males are so consistent in how they behave?

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 12/19/2016 6:21:00 PM (view original):

Posted by CoachWard95 on 12/19/2016 6:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 12/19/2016 6:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by CoachWard95 on 12/19/2016 6:00:00 PM (view original):

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 12/19/2016 5:58:00 PM (view original):
At this point the game is no longer about skill though. It's similar to playing craps. You do your best to get the odds to even and then hope the dice go your way.

But if you get the odds the dice roll is always going to go your way? Are you talking about gameplay or recruting?

Recruiting. The odds in craps are never better than even.

You can have something like 80%- 60% on effort or 100% 99.9% on effort. The 80-60 will be more lopsided and the one with 100-99.9 on effort will be determine by coin flip. Nothing is random.

It is random. One person has 80% chance of winning, the other has 60% chance. THAT IS RNG.

Ok keyword I said was "effort", effort was not design in the algarethem of the game. It is based on human clicks and knowledge of the game on how to recruit. Effort- definition of effort by http://www.dictionary.com/browse/effort
"something done by exertion or hard work":
"I thought it would be easy, but it was an effort".

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/19/2016 6:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 12/19/2016 6:30:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/19/2016 6:28:00 PM (view original):
No, I'm arguing that you'll accept a game result that shouldn't happen but whine about losing a recruiting battle. It's the same concept. You do everything you can to tilt the scales in your favor. Then the program runs and gives you the outcome.

The difference is that teams and players can have off nights which accounts for a REASON to utilize RNG. There is no reason to use RNG for recruiting.

The only thing RNG does in recruiting is help people that are bad at the game.

Because 18 y/o males are so consistent in how they behave?

We're talking about picking a school, not driving a sports car...

Posted by CoachWard95 on 12/19/2016 6:32:00 PM (view original):

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 12/19/2016 6:21:00 PM (view original):

Posted by CoachWard95 on 12/19/2016 6:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 12/19/2016 6:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by CoachWard95 on 12/19/2016 6:00:00 PM (view original):

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 12/19/2016 5:58:00 PM (view original):
At this point the game is no longer about skill though. It's similar to playing craps. You do your best to get the odds to even and then hope the dice go your way.

But if you get the odds the dice roll is always going to go your way? Are you talking about gameplay or recruting?

Recruiting. The odds in craps are never better than even.

You can have something like 80%- 60% on effort or 100% 99.9% on effort. The 80-60 will be more lopsided and the one with 100-99.9 on effort will be determine by coin flip. Nothing is random.

It is random. One person has 80% chance of winning, the other has 60% chance. THAT IS RNG.

Ok keyword I said was "effort", effort was not design in the algarethem of the game. It is based on human clicks and knowledge of the game on how to recruit. Effort- definition of effort by http://www.dictionary.com/browse/effort
"something done by exertion or hard work":
"I thought it would be easy, but it was an effort".

Are we even having the same conversation?

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 12/19/2016 6:35:00 PM (view original):

Posted by CoachWard95 on 12/19/2016 6:32:00 PM (view original):

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 12/19/2016 6:21:00 PM (view original):

Posted by CoachWard95 on 12/19/2016 6:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 12/19/2016 6:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by CoachWard95 on 12/19/2016 6:00:00 PM (view original):

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 12/19/2016 5:58:00 PM (view original):
At this point the game is no longer about skill though. It's similar to playing craps. You do your best to get the odds to even and then hope the dice go your way.

But if you get the odds the dice roll is always going to go your way? Are you talking about gameplay or recruting?

Recruiting. The odds in craps are never better than even.

You can have something like 80%- 60% on effort or 100% 99.9% on effort. The 80-60 will be more lopsided and the one with 100-99.9 on effort will be determine by coin flip. Nothing is random.

It is random. One person has 80% chance of winning, the other has 60% chance. THAT IS RNG.

Ok keyword I said was "effort", effort was not design in the algarethem of the game. It is based on human clicks and knowledge of the game on how to recruit. Effort- definition of effort by http://www.dictionary.com/browse/effort
"something done by exertion or hard work":
"I thought it would be easy, but it was an effort".

Are we even having the same conversation?

Yes you're just butt hurt because you have no reply to a accurate state of the game.

Posted by CoachWard95 on 12/19/2016 6:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 12/19/2016 6:35:00 PM (view original):

Posted by CoachWard95 on 12/19/2016 6:32:00 PM (view original):

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 12/19/2016 6:21:00 PM (view original):

Posted by CoachWard95 on 12/19/2016 6:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 12/19/2016 6:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by CoachWard95 on 12/19/2016 6:00:00 PM (view original):

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 12/19/2016 5:58:00 PM (view original):
At this point the game is no longer about skill though. It's similar to playing craps. You do your best to get the odds to even and then hope the dice go your way.

But if you get the odds the dice roll is always going to go your way? Are you talking about gameplay or recruting?

Recruiting. The odds in craps are never better than even.

You can have something like 80%- 60% on effort or 100% 99.9% on effort. The 80-60 will be more lopsided and the one with 100-99.9 on effort will be determine by coin flip. Nothing is random.

It is random. One person has 80% chance of winning, the other has 60% chance. THAT IS RNG.

Ok keyword I said was "effort", effort was not design in the algarethem of the game. It is based on human clicks and knowledge of the game on how to recruit. Effort- definition of effort by http://www.dictionary.com/browse/effort
"something done by exertion or hard work":
"I thought it would be easy, but it was an effort".

Are we even having the same conversation?

Yes you're just butt hurt because you have no reply to a accurate state of the game.

No it's because I don't speak that dialect of retard and I have no idea what you're even trying to say.

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/19/2016 6:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 12/19/2016 6:30:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/19/2016 6:28:00 PM (view original):
No, I'm arguing that you'll accept a game result that shouldn't happen but whine about losing a recruiting battle. It's the same concept. You do everything you can to tilt the scales in your favor. Then the program runs and gives you the outcome.

The difference is that teams and players can have off nights which accounts for a REASON to utilize RNG. There is no reason to use RNG for recruiting.

The only thing RNG does in recruiting is help people that are bad at the game.

Because 18 y/o males are so consistent in how they behave?

Mike, I don't think this is a particularly good analogy. I think the reason why certain people accept the RNG for gameplay, but have a harder time for recruiting is because for recruiting, the results are longer-lasting. You lose the dice roll in a game, you come back next night. You lose it in a battle, you could be screwed for a season (or more).

I think a secondary reason for the reaction is because in 2.0, if your strategy was correct, you always (ALWAYS) won the recruiting battle. If you got poached, it was because you made a misjudgment (or gambled and lost). That allowed the users who understood the game better (and who had prior success) to really keep a hammerlock on the top recruits. That transition from the deterministic model to the probabilistic model has been very difficult for many longtime users (me included). I think the pendulum has gone way too far to probabilistic (I think they could have added some randomness w/o making it a total free-for-all), but I admit my biases, since I liked/was successful in 2.0.

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 12/19/2016 6:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by CoachWard95 on 12/19/2016 6:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 12/19/2016 6:35:00 PM (view original):

Posted by CoachWard95 on 12/19/2016 6:32:00 PM (view original):

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 12/19/2016 6:21:00 PM (view original):

Posted by CoachWard95 on 12/19/2016 6:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 12/19/2016 6:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by CoachWard95 on 12/19/2016 6:00:00 PM (view original):

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 12/19/2016 5:58:00 PM (view original):
At this point the game is no longer about skill though. It's similar to playing craps. You do your best to get the odds to even and then hope the dice go your way.

But if you get the odds the dice roll is always going to go your way? Are you talking about gameplay or recruting?

Recruiting. The odds in craps are never better than even.

You can have something like 80%- 60% on effort or 100% 99.9% on effort. The 80-60 will be more lopsided and the one with 100-99.9 on effort will be determine by coin flip. Nothing is random.

It is random. One person has 80% chance of winning, the other has 60% chance. THAT IS RNG.

Ok keyword I said was "effort", effort was not design in the algarethem of the game. It is based on human clicks and knowledge of the game on how to recruit. Effort- definition of effort by http://www.dictionary.com/browse/effort
"something done by exertion or hard work":
"I thought it would be easy, but it was an effort".

Are we even having the same conversation?

Yes you're just butt hurt because you have no reply to a accurate state of the game.

No it's because I don't speak that dialect of retard and I have no idea what you're even trying to say.

You must be dumb as **** for calling me a retard.

Posted by CoachWard95 on 12/19/2016 6:39:00 PM (view original):

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 12/19/2016 6:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by CoachWard95 on 12/19/2016 6:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 12/19/2016 6:35:00 PM (view original):

Posted by CoachWard95 on 12/19/2016 6:32:00 PM (view original):

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 12/19/2016 6:21:00 PM (view original):

Posted by CoachWard95 on 12/19/2016 6:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 12/19/2016 6:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by CoachWard95 on 12/19/2016 6:00:00 PM (view original):

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 12/19/2016 5:58:00 PM (view original):
At this point the game is no longer about skill though. It's similar to playing craps. You do your best to get the odds to even and then hope the dice go your way.

But if you get the odds the dice roll is always going to go your way? Are you talking about gameplay or recruting?

Recruiting. The odds in craps are never better than even.

You can have something like 80%- 60% on effort or 100% 99.9% on effort. The 80-60 will be more lopsided and the one with 100-99.9 on effort will be determine by coin flip. Nothing is random.

It is random. One person has 80% chance of winning, the other has 60% chance. THAT IS RNG.

Ok keyword I said was "effort", effort was not design in the algarethem of the game. It is based on human clicks and knowledge of the game on how to recruit. Effort- definition of effort by http://www.dictionary.com/browse/effort
"something done by exertion or hard work":
"I thought it would be easy, but it was an effort".

Are we even having the same conversation?

Yes you're just butt hurt because you have no reply to a accurate state of the game.

No it's because I don't speak that dialect of retard and I have no idea what you're even trying to say.

You must be dumb as **** for calling me a retard.

why's that?

Posted by johnsensing on 12/19/2016 6:38:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/19/2016 6:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 12/19/2016 6:30:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/19/2016 6:28:00 PM (view original):
No, I'm arguing that you'll accept a game result that shouldn't happen but whine about losing a recruiting battle. It's the same concept. You do everything you can to tilt the scales in your favor. Then the program runs and gives you the outcome.

The difference is that teams and players can have off nights which accounts for a REASON to utilize RNG. There is no reason to use RNG for recruiting.

The only thing RNG does in recruiting is help people that are bad at the game.

Because 18 y/o males are so consistent in how they behave?

Mike, I don't think this is a particularly good analogy. I think the reason why certain people accept the RNG for gameplay, but have a harder time for recruiting is because for recruiting, the results are longer-lasting. You lose the dice roll in a game, you come back next night. You lose it in a battle, you could be screwed for a season (or more).

I think a secondary reason for the reaction is because in 2.0, if your strategy was correct, you always (ALWAYS) won the recruiting battle. If you got poached, it was because you made a misjudgment (or gambled and lost). That allowed the users who understood the game better (and who had prior success) to really keep a hammerlock on the top recruits. That transition from the deterministic model to the probabilistic model has been very difficult for many longtime users (me included). I think the pendulum has gone way too far to probabilistic (I think they could have added some randomness w/o making it a total free-for-all), but I admit my biases, since I liked/was successful in 2.0.

I'll say that this is an internet game. If you're screwed for a season, my guess is your dog will still be glad to see you when you come home.

The game was changed because the entrenched, long-time users had too big of an advantage. Not only are/were they better at the game, their schools/prestige/etc made it too difficult to break into the inner circle. You can say "We earned it" and I'm not going to argue against that. But the first thread I opened when I signed up for my free team was "I've won 7 of the last 12 NT and now, because of EE, I'm screwed." If Kentucky wins 7 of 12 in the real world, so be it. But that's a terrible game to sell to the new guy.

WifS may have botched the update so bad that HD becomes CRD. But HD had stagnated to the point that it was going to go extinct anyway.

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 12/19/2016 6:40:00 PM (view original):

Posted by CoachWard95 on 12/19/2016 6:39:00 PM (view original):

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 12/19/2016 6:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by CoachWard95 on 12/19/2016 6:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 12/19/2016 6:35:00 PM (view original):

Posted by CoachWard95 on 12/19/2016 6:32:00 PM (view original):

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 12/19/2016 6:21:00 PM (view original):

Posted by CoachWard95 on 12/19/2016 6:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 12/19/2016 6:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by CoachWard95 on 12/19/2016 6:00:00 PM (view original):

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 12/19/2016 5:58:00 PM (view original):
At this point the game is no longer about skill though. It's similar to playing craps. You do your best to get the odds to even and then hope the dice go your way.

But if you get the odds the dice roll is always going to go your way? Are you talking about gameplay or recruting?

Recruiting. The odds in craps are never better than even.

You can have something like 80%- 60% on effort or 100% 99.9% on effort. The 80-60 will be more lopsided and the one with 100-99.9 on effort will be determine by coin flip. Nothing is random.

It is random. One person has 80% chance of winning, the other has 60% chance. THAT IS RNG.

Ok keyword I said was "effort", effort was not design in the algarethem of the game. It is based on human clicks and knowledge of the game on how to recruit. Effort- definition of effort by http://www.dictionary.com/browse/effort
"something done by exertion or hard work":
"I thought it would be easy, but it was an effort".

Are we even having the same conversation?

Yes you're just butt hurt because you have no reply to a accurate state of the game.

No it's because I don't speak that dialect of retard and I have no idea what you're even trying to say.

You must be dumb as **** for calling me a retard.

why's that?

Because I gave sources I agree with most of the positive people who want the future of the game to be great. If you look around in the forums maybe in the past month at the guys who NEVER said anything negative of the game always look for what good of the game is going to be I can name five right off the bat. Benis, TrentonJoe, Chapel, Shoe, and Rednu. Look at those guys resume and tell me if I am wrong or not thank you.

Posted by johnsensing on 12/19/2016 6:38:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/19/2016 6:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 12/19/2016 6:30:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/19/2016 6:28:00 PM (view original):
No, I'm arguing that you'll accept a game result that shouldn't happen but whine about losing a recruiting battle. It's the same concept. You do everything you can to tilt the scales in your favor. Then the program runs and gives you the outcome.

The difference is that teams and players can have off nights which accounts for a REASON to utilize RNG. There is no reason to use RNG for recruiting.

The only thing RNG does in recruiting is help people that are bad at the game.

Because 18 y/o males are so consistent in how they behave?

Mike, I don't think this is a particularly good analogy. I think the reason why certain people accept the RNG for gameplay, but have a harder time for recruiting is because for recruiting, the results are longer-lasting. You lose the dice roll in a game, you come back next night. You lose it in a battle, you could be screwed for a season (or more).

I think a secondary reason for the reaction is because in 2.0, if your strategy was correct, you always (ALWAYS) won the recruiting battle. If you got poached, it was because you made a misjudgment (or gambled and lost). That allowed the users who understood the game better (and who had prior success) to really keep a hammerlock on the top recruits. That transition from the deterministic model to the probabilistic model has been very difficult for many longtime users (me included). I think the pendulum has gone way too far to probabilistic (I think they could have added some randomness w/o making it a total free-for-all), but I admit my biases, since I liked/was successful in 2.0.

Just the fact that there was a "correct" strategy - and you're right, there was a "correct", i.e. dominant strategy, and if you got it wrong (or gambled and lost) you were good and screwed - negates the whole idea of 3.0 "requiring less skill". There are many strategies now in play. It takes more skill to field an excellent team now.

Whatever you want to say about what some incremental change or another could have done, the bottom line is that nothing was going to improve the game and break the "hammerlock" until 51 no longer beat 49 100% of the time. That was the unrealistic and non-competitive factor that made this winner's ball, and less fun than it should have been for competitive people. That's what established the absurd incentive for extreme risk aversion, and ultimately what made the game worse than it should have been.

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 12/19/2016 6:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 12/19/2016 6:13:00 PM (view original):

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 12/19/2016 5:58:00 PM (view original):
At this point the game is no longer about skill though. It's similar to playing craps. You do your best to get the odds to even and then hope the dice go your way.

This statement is about as dumb as it gets. If you actually believe this, you have not thought very hard, or very well, about the game that exists. It is literally nothing like craps. The skill now is in prioritization, and how you plan for contingencies; in developing efficient scouting processes that uncover good matches for you; in developing a variety of recruiting tactics to use in different situations, because extreme risk aversion is no longer a dominant recruiting strategy, and the vast majority of valuable recruits will need to be fought for. It takes more skill, more planning, and more flexibility to get excellent results. Stop with the "craps" garbage.

It's not dumb. It's exactly what it's like. On a whole skill doesn't determine how good of a team you create, luck does. You can be very unlucky and lose every battle you're in because signing someone doesn't matter how good you are at recruiting anymore, it matters if you're lucky enough to have RNG go your way.

No, it's very dumb. Skill doesn't end with winning or losing a single recruit. Your approach is myopic, and a good way for people to be very bad at 3.0. Cream has and will continue to rise to the top. But success is going to be more realistic now, it will look less like 7 championships in 13 years, and more like 7 final 4s in 13 years, which is more in line with what dominant real life programs experience.

Coach Cal and Coach K are not just lucky, and they're not playing craps; and neither are people who are good at (and enjoy) HD as it currently exists.

Thanks for the name drop coachward.

For the record, I do like 3.0 but it's not without it's faults. Nothing is ever going to be perfect simply because perfect means different things to different people. I think there are still a few things that need to be enhanced/modified/changed to improve the game IMHO. But overall, I do like most of what I'm seeing.

However, I get the gripes of others who don't like it and won't argue with them about it. And if people want to make a thread saying they don't like the changes, so be it. Doesn't bother me at all. I suppose you can say that it's 'bad for noobs to see' but I honestly don't think very many even get to the forums. They quit playing well before they ever read any of these threads.