Posted by fd343ny on 12/26/2016 3:35:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/26/2016 10:06:00 AM (view original):
I think it's just a different way of doing things. Perhaps, because I didn't play 2.0, it was easier for me to adapt to the scouting process in 3.0.

I just pulled up my dotted PG(8). I can make all those comparisons you listed at a glance.

You are smarter than me.

Maybe but I don't think HD scouting techniques prove it.

Posted by fd343ny on 12/26/2016 9:52:00 AM (view original):
Lets talk just about guards, for example

The core of what I am saying is that it isnt a question only of putting guard recruits into four buckets. For example -

guys who are ready soon (but with lower ceilings) vs guys who wont be useful until they take advantage of their potential

early v late signers

guys who will be great perimeter shooters but limited in other ways

guys who dont shoot well at all, but otherwise are excellent guards

guys who lack some important guard skills but could be excellent players at the 3 - or a step away from that guys who wont ever be excellent but who could be nice backups at the 3 and the 2.

Thats what comes to mind quickly. I have a hard time putting players in four or five buckets based on that.

Then, add the fact that if pickings are slim on some need - say I need a guard or I need a guard who can shoot - then I'll need to adjust what I think of as acceptable

I try to think about this stuff as I scout - but I cant do it effectively in 10 minute bits. Some folks probably can.

Thats the sort of stuff that leads me think that I need to scouting without breaking up the effort into too many segments.

You are understanding my issue. It's not just about mass scouting. That's relatively easy, although even that takes longer as I now have to strategically determine how far I want to scout, do I only want to scout already discovered players, how many times can I assistant scout before I have to start scouting individual players how much money do I need to save for scouting individual players. Based on the type of players I have available, I now need to determine if I'm going to scout/recruit studs over role players. You're never going to achieve anything with a team full of role players. At some point you're going to have to pull in some good ones. Am I going to have to rescout at the individual level, simply because there were less good players already scouted than I expected?

Each one of these steps is additional steps that were not necessary before. Once I start scouting on the individual level, I have to scout through each level of scouting just to determine who gets scouted individually. Then you still have to consider preferences and recruiting. If battles go different than expected, this may mean additional scouting. This is a lot to keep track of over 15 min here and there. I'm going to spend a few minutes just trying to figure out what was happening the last time I spent 15 min and what I was thinking about as I added or ignored new recruits. Once you add all this time up, it's not an insignificant amount.

Mike, not to pick on you, but you say you can do this stuff from work since you own your own business, but not everyone has that luxury. I finish work, I come home to study for certifications, exams, help my kid with school work, clean the house, make dinner (and I know I'm not the only one who does this), but it was nice setting aside a small window to knock everything out and move on.

I don't feel picked on and I recognize I do have the luxury of saying "I'm gonna take 15 minutes right now." That said, my days are roughly 12 hours long. Then I still have the "outside responsibilities" akin to what you mention. To me, that's why 15 minute windows are easier than 45-60 minute blocks. If I HAD to take an hour at a time, I doubt I'd be able to play. Again, I think it's just a different way of doing things and, because I didn't have a "system" from 2.0, this way seems easy enough to me.

I also think I have the "advantage" of playing HBD for 10 years. In the beginning, there feels like you have so much to do that you have to split time up.

Posted by bfflcommish on 12/26/2016 12:13:00 PM (view original):
Having additional colors for the "dots" would be helpful. However, I still believe (as I have mentioned numerous times in this forum as well as during Beta) that the Recruiting Home pages should be SORTABLE!

this would be a user friendly change

Posted by cwisniewski on 12/21/2016 9:58:00 AM (view original):
We understand that scouting takes more time than it did in HD 2.0 and that is because there really wasn't any scouting besides FSS, which only required you to select a few states. Scouting in HD 3.0 is much more intensive and is now a much larger part of the game and that is why we give you plenty of time to scout before any recruiting actually starts.

So you are correct that scouting takes longer than the previous but the biggest issue may be that you are trying to do all of your scouting at one time. There is a reason the scouting period is so long and that is because our idea was that each user could spend 10-15 minutes scouting each day (obviously you can spend however much time you want, but this is what we had in mind). If you do this, you will realize that scouting is not really time consuming and that you have plenty of time to scout any number of recruits to any level that you want by only spending a few minutes here and there per day (like MikeT said).

Just noting that the WIS expectation that one might spend 10-15 minutes on scouting each day over and extended period gets darn close to a few hours in the aggregate. For me, many little bits of time on scouting would be inefficient in a number of ways, so the WIS expectation doesn't fit me as a user

There are of course a range of user experiences and preferences.

Posted by Benis on 12/21/2016 10:08:00 AM (view original):

Posted by cwisniewski on 12/21/2016 9:58:00 AM (view original):
We understand that scouting takes more time than it did in HD 2.0 and that is because there really wasn't any scouting besides FSS, which only required you to select a few states. Scouting in HD 3.0 is much more intensive and is now a much larger part of the game and that is why we give you plenty of time to scout before any recruiting actually starts.

So you are correct that scouting takes longer than the previous but the biggest issue may be that you are trying to do all of your scouting at one time. There is a reason the scouting period is so long and that is because our idea was that each user could spend 10-15 minutes scouting each day (obviously you can spend however much time you want, but this is what we had in mind). If you do this, you will realize that scouting is not really time consuming and that you have plenty of time to scout any number of recruits to any level that you want by only spending a few minutes here and there per day (like MikeT said).

I think the recruiting portion is what is much more time consuming. You need to be active from the very first cycle which is much different than in 2.0.

One suggestion - when someone you're recruiting signs with another team, can the APs that were allocated to that player be redistributed automatically to other players you have APs set for? It's tough to check the over night cycle (11pm to 5am), at least for me. So if I have 80APs on a guy that signs, they are wasted if I don't log in and reallocate. Which doesn't take that long, but if I have multiple teams recruiting at the same time, it can be tedious and annoying if I'm unavailable.

This is easily my biggest gripe. I spend similar if not less time scouting than I did in 2.0, granted I basically looked at every single recruit before and now i can scout the states and much more quickly pinpoint who I'm targeting. Having a scouting budget also restricts the amount of time I could spend. So that's not a concern.

I like the AP portion much better than the phone calls etc. but there's still a miss somewhere with 3.0. D2/3 recruting is pointless. It's a waiting / hoping game. At least in previous versions drop/pull downs were a thing, here it's too regimented, period one they can do very little but put some AP out and hope. The second recruiting period it's far too difficult moving into a new job to recruit effectively, even at D1. You're basically stuck throwing all your AP at a player or two with only a lower division school on them and hoping you unlock anything before they sign. I think AP's need to be much less restrictive in period 2 for sure and maybe less restrictive overall.

But it let's be honest, two things matter in recruiting, prestige and effort and really prestige should matter more. This game is meant to be (somewhat) realistic not fair. If you're looking for fair, I've got a shiny participation trophy you can have.

I like the the idea of camps, but there needs to be game or camps for AP too, where the kid sees you in the crowd and you get credit for recruiting the kid too. That would allow for a wider range of secondary targets with AP for more focused attention and recruiting.

That said... A lower level school should have to work their butt off to compete consistently. That's how it works. Time spend scouting, recruiting and game planning. It shouldn't be easy.

Having said that - I don't agree with everything WIS has chosen to do, but I do believe they gave a solid vision that they need to refine. And I don't think they can get there without input and feedback from the coaches, both longtime and newer. I've said this many times before, but I think WIS has missed the boat many times, including not working with the coaches and setting up some sort of feedback group that they talk with consistently and I think they should keep beta open and run a few beta worlds and make tweaks to each. I get they are probably worried about having open (free) beta and losing paying customers but for the logetivy of not only the site but the game they really need to consider having us as users and coaches having a greater impact in the priority of changes.

Posted by metsmax on 12/27/2016 10:56:00 AM (view original):

Posted by cwisniewski on 12/21/2016 9:58:00 AM (view original):
We understand that scouting takes more time than it did in HD 2.0 and that is because there really wasn't any scouting besides FSS, which only required you to select a few states. Scouting in HD 3.0 is much more intensive and is now a much larger part of the game and that is why we give you plenty of time to scout before any recruiting actually starts.

So you are correct that scouting takes longer than the previous but the biggest issue may be that you are trying to do all of your scouting at one time. There is a reason the scouting period is so long and that is because our idea was that each user could spend 10-15 minutes scouting each day (obviously you can spend however much time you want, but this is what we had in mind). If you do this, you will realize that scouting is not really time consuming and that you have plenty of time to scout any number of recruits to any level that you want by only spending a few minutes here and there per day (like MikeT said).

Just noting that the WIS expectation that one might spend 10-15 minutes on scouting each day over and extended period gets darn close to a few hours in the aggregate. For me, many little bits of time on scouting would be inefficient in a number of ways, so the WIS expectation doesn't fit me as a user

There are of course a range of user experiences and preferences.

How much time do you have? I can do all of my scouting in under an hour... and I'm super picky. Then a few days before I come back and review the guys I tagged a color and pinpoint who really are targets.

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/26/2016 10:06:00 AM (view original):
I think it's just a different way of doing things. Perhaps, because I didn't play 2.0, it was easier for me to adapt to the scouting process in 3.0.

I just pulled up my dotted PG(8). I can make all those comparisons you listed at a glance.

Typically, yes this is what I'm able to do. If I happen to get jumped on all my guys and I can't win most of them, that's when it gets time consuming. I also haven't found lower level recruiting fun... it's a hope and wait game. It would be nice to have some safe guard for missing cycle one. Would be nice to always be able to set AP and/or tag recruiting efforts for days (period 2) and just have HD be smart enough not to process them until the given time.

+1 for the sortable idea as well, actually it would be nice if there was even a two char box that I could put numbers in... numbers and colors FTW.

Posted by zhawks on 12/27/2016 4:21:00 PM (view original):

Posted by metsmax on 12/27/2016 10:56:00 AM (view original):

Posted by cwisniewski on 12/21/2016 9:58:00 AM (view original):
We understand that scouting takes more time than it did in HD 2.0 and that is because there really wasn't any scouting besides FSS, which only required you to select a few states. Scouting in HD 3.0 is much more intensive and is now a much larger part of the game and that is why we give you plenty of time to scout before any recruiting actually starts.

So you are correct that scouting takes longer than the previous but the biggest issue may be that you are trying to do all of your scouting at one time. There is a reason the scouting period is so long and that is because our idea was that each user could spend 10-15 minutes scouting each day (obviously you can spend however much time you want, but this is what we had in mind). If you do this, you will realize that scouting is not really time consuming and that you have plenty of time to scout any number of recruits to any level that you want by only spending a few minutes here and there per day (like MikeT said).

Just noting that the WIS expectation that one might spend 10-15 minutes on scouting each day over and extended period gets darn close to a few hours in the aggregate. For me, many little bits of time on scouting would be inefficient in a number of ways, so the WIS expectation doesn't fit me as a user

There are of course a range of user experiences and preferences.

How much time do you have? I can do all of my scouting in under an hour... and I'm super picky. Then a few days before I come back and review the guys I tagged a color and pinpoint who really are targets.

That's not under an hour though if you're coming back again for a more detailed look.

Posted by zhawks on 12/27/2016 4:44:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/26/2016 10:06:00 AM (view original):
I think it's just a different way of doing things. Perhaps, because I didn't play 2.0, it was easier for me to adapt to the scouting process in 3.0.

I just pulled up my dotted PG(8). I can make all those comparisons you listed at a glance.

Typically, yes this is what I'm able to do. If I happen to get jumped on all my guys and I can't win most of them, that's when it gets time consuming. I also haven't found lower level recruiting fun... it's a hope and wait game. It would be nice to have some safe guard for missing cycle one. Would be nice to always be able to set AP and/or tag recruiting efforts for days (period 2) and just have HD be smart enough not to process them until the given time.

+1 for the sortable idea as well, actually it would be nice if there was even a two char box that I could put numbers in... numbers and colors FTW.

Don't disagree at all here. Once you miss on guys, now you have to go back through another round of scouting and the time adds up.

Quote post by zhawks on 12/27/2016 4:16:00 PM:

Having said that - I don't agree with everything WIS has chosen to do, but I do believe they gave a solid vision that they need to refine. And I don't think they can get there without input and feedback from the coaches, both longtime and newer. I've said this many times before, but I think WIS has missed the boat many times, including not working with the coaches and setting up some sort of feedback group that they talk with consistently and I think they should keep beta open and run a few beta worlds and make tweaks to each. I get they are probably worried about having open (free) beta and losing paying customers but for the logetivy of not only the site but the game they really need to consider having us as users and coaches having a greater impact in the priority of changes.

You hit the nail on the head here.

Posted by poncho0091 on 12/28/2016 12:25:00 AM (view original):

Posted by zhawks on 12/27/2016 4:21:00 PM (view original):

Posted by metsmax on 12/27/2016 10:56:00 AM (view original):

Posted by cwisniewski on 12/21/2016 9:58:00 AM (view original):
We understand that scouting takes more time than it did in HD 2.0 and that is because there really wasn't any scouting besides FSS, which only required you to select a few states. Scouting in HD 3.0 is much more intensive and is now a much larger part of the game and that is why we give you plenty of time to scout before any recruiting actually starts.

So you are correct that scouting takes longer than the previous but the biggest issue may be that you are trying to do all of your scouting at one time. There is a reason the scouting period is so long and that is because our idea was that each user could spend 10-15 minutes scouting each day (obviously you can spend however much time you want, but this is what we had in mind). If you do this, you will realize that scouting is not really time consuming and that you have plenty of time to scout any number of recruits to any level that you want by only spending a few minutes here and there per day (like MikeT said).

Just noting that the WIS expectation that one might spend 10-15 minutes on scouting each day over and extended period gets darn close to a few hours in the aggregate. For me, many little bits of time on scouting would be inefficient in a number of ways, so the WIS expectation doesn't fit me as a user

There are of course a range of user experiences and preferences.

How much time do you have? I can do all of my scouting in under an hour... and I'm super picky. Then a few days before I come back and review the guys I tagged a color and pinpoint who really are targets.

That's not under an hour though if you're coming back again for a more detailed look.

Fair point, after re reading I think I wasn't quite clear on what I meant. I can get my list done top 20-30 guys I want, in under an hour. Then coming back once or twice for 15-20 mins and I can have my targets. So Overall, 2ish hours max, but that's likely on the high end, I haven't actually timed it out I'll do that next time.

I have timed mine. I'm just under an hour, somewhere between 50-58 minutes according to my notes(I'm a little fuzzy on the exact time for 2 sessions), and I have 4 primary, 6 secondary, 17 others tagged. 4 primary are L4, 6 secondary are L3 and 17 tagged are L2. Barring an amazing stroke of luck, some of the 23 secondary/tagged will be scouted further and my time will eclipse an hour. I can't imagine needing to scout more than that 27 but, if necessary, I have the funds.

I scout more than 27... FSS many states then some assistant scouts... then I go pick off players one by one... mostly skip F WE guys... then I choose the color if they meet my criteria for maybe recruit... wash rinse repeate until I've got my list.

I scouted more. 27 was just targets/tagged. I have 58 at L2. I think the total is near 400 including the top 100.