TEAM scores aren't a good metric.BH
Compare your SPD/BH/PASS to their SPD/DEF/ATH at the 1-2-3.

Posted by Benis on 1/11/2017 10:40:00 AM (view original):
You can't just use avg ratings. They aren't weighted equally by position.

You and I both know that players don't play one position. I think C is the only one on my team. PG/SG/SF, SF/PF and PF/C are the groupings.

Posted by Trentonjoe on 1/11/2017 10:42:00 AM (view original):
TEAM scores aren't a good metric.BH
Compare your SPD/BH/PASS to their SPD/DEF/ATH at the 1-2-3.

It's my contention that we were a better team overall. I agree we aren't equipped at those spots to handle FCP.

Well, still comparing team ratings isn't a good metric.

A team with two 90 BH/PASS guards a 50 SF and two 10's at the PF and center is in most cases significantly better than a team with something like 3' 60's and 2 40's.

That was sort of the point of the thread. I understand the results of most of my games. The FCP games aren't making a lot of sense to me but I know I've been overmatched either in ATH, SPD or both. And I was attempting to get some answers on how it can be beat if you're overmatched in those ratings.

Then Benis started trolling and derailed the thread.

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/11/2017 10:59:00 AM (view original):
That was sort of the point of the thread. I understand the results of most of my games. The FCP games aren't making a lot of sense to me but I know I've been overmatched either in ATH, SPD or both. And I was attempting to get some answers on how it can be beat if you're overmatched in those ratings.

Then Benis started trolling and derailed the thread.

C'mon Mike. I'm not trolling. At least not intentionally.

Perhaps I was a little blunt with my response but nothing I said is incorrect. I've helped several new coaches and I've given them the same advice. I just say what I see. If I think you have a bad team, I'll say that's a bad team. If I think it's a pretty good team, I'll say it's a pretty good team. This is all my opinion of course.

So my assessment of your team is accurate. You backcourt is not good and not equipped to beat even a decent press. You say you understand the results of your team but you clearly don't. Sorry, but you don't. You're using average team ratings in your defense and this is not what you should do. You're ignoring the fact that your starting PG has a C IQ but then saying you have an IQ advantage. You are showing numbers that are not what you should be looking at when assessing the outcome of a game. They can be misleading. Read what TJ is saying. I'm trying to tell you the same thing.

This last paragraph is not meant to attack you. I'm just giving you a very blunt assessment of what I see in your team and your game results. Nothing more.

So bottom line, to answer your overall question. Can you overcome a SPD/ATH disadvantage with with superior ball skills? YES you can. If you had a couple guys with 80 BH/Pass and another guy with 90 Per and kept all other ratings the same, I think you would have won.

You are forgetting the luck and randomness built into 3.0. There are going to be inexplicable results in game play and in recruiting.

Posted by flageezer on 1/11/2017 11:55:00 AM (view original):
You are forgetting the luck and randomness built into 3.0. There are going to be inexplicable results in game play and in recruiting.

Of course. I'm just saying when I get beat by 10, I can usually say "Oh, that's why." But the FCP is beating my brains in. I recognize my SPD/ATH disadvantages but they're not going away tomorrow. I was simply trying to find out if anyone had an idea on how to overcome that disadvantage while fully recognizing that I might lack those skills also. I think 3 teams in my conference play FCP and I was hoping to steal a victory in the tourney if we draw one of them.

But it sounds like I don't have the horses.

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/11/2017 11:59:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 1/11/2017 11:46:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/11/2017 10:59:00 AM (view original):
That was sort of the point of the thread. I understand the results of most of my games. The FCP games aren't making a lot of sense to me but I know I've been overmatched either in ATH, SPD or both. And I was attempting to get some answers on how it can be beat if you're overmatched in those ratings.

Then Benis started trolling and derailed the thread.

C'mon Mike. I'm not trolling. At least not intentionally.

Perhaps I was a little blunt with my response but nothing I said is incorrect. I've helped several new coaches and I've given them the same advice. I just say what I see. If I think you have a bad team, I'll say that's a bad team. If I think it's a pretty good team, I'll say it's a pretty good team. This is all my opinion of course.

So my assessment of your team is accurate. You backcourt is not good and not equipped to beat even a decent press. You say you understand the results of your team but you clearly don't. Sorry, but you don't. You're using average team ratings in your defense and this is not what you should do. You're ignoring the fact that your starting PG has a C IQ but then saying you have an IQ advantage. You are showing numbers that are not what you should be looking at when assessing the outcome of a game. They can be misleading. Read what TJ is saying. I'm trying to tell you the same thing.

This last paragraph is not meant to attack you. I'm just giving you a very blunt assessment of what I see in your team and your game results. Nothing more.

So bottom line, to answer your overall question. Can you overcome a SPD/ATH disadvantage with with superior ball skills? YES you can. If you had a couple guys with 80 BH/Pass and another guy with 90 Per and kept all other ratings the same, I think you would have won.

For ****'s sake. Of course you're trolling. Just call it what it is. I don't really care that you're trolling but let's at least be honest.

You have no ******* idea what I understand and what I do not. You're not in my ******* head. You said "Why do you think...?" and I posted some numbers. There's no goddam way I'm going as deep into why I think I understand the results as I do. It's too ******* long and I'm not a long-winded dipshit on the internet because people aren't all that interested.

So troll away but be honest with yourself, you pompous ***.

Yeah, I am a pompous ***. Won't argue there.

But are you SURE you're not a long-winded dipshit?

Dipshit? Maybe but most of my posts are relatively short.

Passive-aggressive ****** me off. "I'm not trolling but......" usually means you are trolling.

A lot of you vets act like you've discovered some secret formula that takes years of learning. You haven't. It's just number evaluation.

And I was explaining how those number evaluations work in the context of the game...

And I like talking about ratings and positions and other basketball type stuff, even if just numbers related. It beats all the "this game sucks" and "stop whining" threads, doesn't it?

So my assessment of your team is accurate. It sucks. I think I've said that plenty of times. I'm sure you read my posts.

You backcourt is not good and not equipped to beat even a decent press. This was info I needed. I was looking for a way but understood it might not be there.

You say you understand the results of your team but you clearly don't. Sorry, but you don't. Yeah, this annoyed me. You don't know what I know. I don't know a lot but, when I lose/win, I usually understand why. Not so with FCP.

You're using average team ratings in your defense and this is not what you should do. No, I was just giving you simple because I don't like long-winded and hate to be a hypocrite.

You're ignoring the fact that your starting PG has a C IQ but then saying you have an IQ advantage. No, again. Just generalizing that my D is B everywhere(as is my O with two exceptions) and his was all over the place.

You are showing numbers that are not what you should be looking at when assessing the outcome of a game. No, I was just giving you simple because I don't like long-winded and hate to be a hypocrite.

They can be misleading. Which would be meaningful if you knew what you were talking about.

Here's some of what I've done when I've been surprised by outcomes:
How many minutes did Player SG actually play SG? How many at PG or SF? Who covered him? What was his ratings? How did Player SG perform against him? Who else was on the court? What was the distribution numbers? Who was scoring against the 3-2 when he played? What position did they play? What was their ratings? Where does IQ factor in?

There's more but this is long-winded. It's ill-informed to think I average numbers and say "Makes no sense" but that's what you assumed. Overall, I had the better team in last night's game. Not overwhelmingly better but I believe, had they played any D but FCP, I win by 5-8 points. I was never in it.

Not that you care or that I need to justify anything but here's the "logic" behind Pritts and his C IQ at PG.

He and Zeier are pretty equivalent in BH/P. Zeier has a better IQ, C+, but Pritts is far more athletic. Zeier has a 2 pt speed edge. On a per minute basis, they get the same TO/STL. Truth is, Pritts plays better at SG and SF. I'd rather do that but that's not my team. I can't use him at SF because I'm already screwed in REB since I found out Wagner, who I thought would be my b/u PF, is all but useless.

And, for god measure, I was doing a +/- points, for each player at each position, for awhile but decided it might be pointless. I haven't seen anyone mention it and, quite frankly, it was sucking the fun out of the game. There's more behind the curtain than you think.

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/11/2017 3:03:00 PM (view original):
Not that you care or that I need to justify anything but here's the "logic" behind Pritts and his C IQ at PG.

He and Zeier are pretty equivalent in BH/P. Zeier has a better IQ, C+, but Pritts is far more athletic. Zeier has a 2 pt speed edge. On a per minute basis, they get the same TO/STL. Truth is, Pritts plays better at SG and SF. I'd rather do that but that's not my team. I can't use him at SF because I'm already screwed in REB since I found out Wagner, who I thought would be my b/u PF, is all but useless.

And, for god measure, I was doing a +/- points, for each player at each position, for awhile but decided it might be pointless. I haven't seen anyone mention it and, quite frankly, it was sucking the fun out of the game. There's more behind the curtain than you think.

Mike - to be clear, I'm not trying to criticize your lineup choices. You have very little to choose from at the moment and you need to over come SIM recruits. Not much you can do.

But when you ask about being able to beat the press, you're simply going to struggle against it in the short term. I interpreted your initial post as being confused on how the game works because you believed that you DID have enough talent to beat a press and I was just pointing out that I just don't think you do based upon your starting backcourt's ratings. It's just a horrible style matchup for your team.

My initial question of "why do you think your team is more talented" wasn't really meant to argumentative but I can see how it came off that way. It was more an attempt for me (or others if they're interested) to see what your logic is or how you're evaluating your team. Maybe you were seeing something that wasn't there was my hunch after looking at the two teams.

So when you just showed me the ratings of the two teams and showed the differences of average ratings, it told me that you were looking at the wrong information. I didn't realize your hatred of long detailed posts.

But I still believe you can't use the average ratings to evaluate why you lost a game. Using the averages, it looks like you and him are even in PER. It's pretty darn close using that number. But in reality, he is better there. Not by insurmountable amounts but he has two guys with over 70 PER. He made 5-9 3s in that game and that was a big difference in scoring.

Your PG scored pretty effectively actually but he had 0 assists and 4 turnovers. Not a big surprise though based upon his BH/Pass/IQ against a press.