Posted by zbrent716 on 3/28/2017 4:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by zbrent716 on 3/28/2017 4:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/28/2017 4:24:00 PM (view original):
Yeah, I guess I need to see an example of P-option/NTC NOT being included in a max deal. As I'm sure you know, CS doesn't always give correct answers and "knowledge base" isn't always knowledgeable.

For quick turnaround, I can give you Vincenzo Smalley (https://www.whatifsports.com/hbd/Pages/Popups/PlayerRatings.aspx?pid=2966522). His first contract is an example of the NTC not being included.

My confirmation/discussion with CS didn't come up until after his second deal (where he demanded a NTC, so got it), so he stole a player option in both instances, but it wasn't needed.

Norm Long (https://www.whatifsports.com/hbd/Pages/Popups/PlayerRatings.aspx?pid=1297111) is another. Same lack of NTC, but still won the tie-breaker based on coaches.

And here's one (but not one of mine) that had neither - Freddie Lanning (https://www.whatifsports.com/hbd/Pages/Popups/PlayerRatings.aspx?pid=5829377).

I'm going to hijack this thread for a second. I honestly can't see offering a max deal to a pitcher. Even my most rediculous pitcher (99 Stam, 33 dur) still only pitched 41 games max. Even if he wins all of that, it's a quarter of the season. 20% to a third of your cash is a lot for that. Maybe some day I might spend a max deal on a position player who is in for all 162, but I doubt it.

Well, now I've seen it. I guess I need to do it to be 100% convinced as there is no way to know if anyone was offering PO/NTC against those who didn't. Player options and no trade clauses SHOULD add value to a deal.

I'd only offer a max deal to a pitcher. A hitter is probably already on the downside of his career when he's eligible for FA. Pitchers can hold their value for the duration of a max deal at 32/33.

I'm cheap in HBD like I am in real life. I can only think of two players I would offer a max contract to.

https://www.whatifsports.com/hbd/Pages/Popups/PlayerContracts.aspx?pid=2038207

when he was 30 I was in on that. Obviously I had no chance playing in SD.

And if

https://www.whatifsports.com/hbd/Pages/Popups/PlayerRatings.aspx?pid=7698563

walks, I'll be all in on him as well.

Posted by hockey1984 on 3/28/2017 4:49:00 PM (view original):
I'm going to hijack this thread for a second. I honestly can't see offering a max deal to a pitcher. Even my most rediculous pitcher (99 Stam, 33 dur) still only pitched 41 games max. Even if he wins all of that, it's a quarter of the season. 20% to a third of your cash is a lot for that. Maybe some day I might spend a max deal on a position player who is in for all 162, but I doubt it.

Depending on DUR/STA most SP's (and a few RP's) can throw somewhere around 1/8 to 1/5 of all pitches thrown during a season. A batter will face 1/9 or fewer of all PA's. And if he's at a non-premium defensive position, he'll have little impact on that side of the ball as well. If there was an elite 1B/DH/COF and an elite SP in FA, all else being equal, I'd go for the SP. Elite SS vs. elite SP would be a tougher call unless the SS is on the wrong side of 30.

Posted by brianplath on 3/28/2017 9:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by hockey1984 on 3/28/2017 4:49:00 PM (view original):
I'm going to hijack this thread for a second. I honestly can't see offering a max deal to a pitcher. Even my most rediculous pitcher (99 Stam, 33 dur) still only pitched 41 games max. Even if he wins all of that, it's a quarter of the season. 20% to a third of your cash is a lot for that. Maybe some day I might spend a max deal on a position player who is in for all 162, but I doubt it.

Depending on DUR/STA most SP's (and a few RP's) can throw somewhere around 1/8 to 1/5 of all pitches thrown during a season. A batter will face 1/9 or fewer of all PA's. And if he's at a non-premium defensive position, he'll have little impact on that side of the ball as well. If there was an elite 1B/DH/COF and an elite SP in FA, all else being equal, I'd go for the SP. Elite SS vs. elite SP would be a tougher call unless the SS is on the wrong side of 30.

Not sure where you are getting the 1/5 pitches. That is assuming a pitcher would throw a compete game every 5 days. Even my stud pitcher (300 innings) only threw 1/5 innings. and that is super rare. More likly it's somewhere in the middle with 200 innings. So like 1/7 maybe 1/6. Probably something like 1/6.5.

Where as with a batter I would try to look at runs created. I know it's a little more complex of a formula then this, but assuming a player hits 120 RBI's (reasonable for a max contract) and scores 80 runs, it works out to be around 200 runs created (again, correct me if I math bad). on average that is greater then 1/4 runs.

Again, like mike said, position players age faster and lose their stats, but that is why I would only want that 1% of super elite players.

again, looking at Clayton Lincoln:

https://www.whatifsports.com/hbd/Pages/Popups/PlayerRatings.aspx?pid=7698563

MVP season, what you would hope and expect from a max contract.

100 runs + 120 RBI's - 42 homeruns (counts as the runs that were scored twice. Both an RBI and a run) = 178

My team scored 681 runs this season. That means Lincoln had a part in 1/3.8 runs this season.

Posted by hockey1984 on 3/28/2017 4:49:00 PM (view original):
I'm going to hijack this thread for a second. I honestly can't see offering a max deal to a pitcher. Even my most rediculous pitcher (99 Stam, 33 dur) still only pitched 41 games max. Even if he wins all of that, it's a quarter of the season. 20% to a third of your cash is a lot for that. Maybe some day I might spend a max deal on a position player who is in for all 162, but I doubt it.

But a pitcher has much more impact in 1 game than a position player does. It's a tradeoff. A star pitcher is going to have a huge impact in 35 games. A position player that plays 35 games is not going to that same effect on a team. I look at 35 starts from a pitcher like it's 150 games from a hitter.

Posted by mrclutch_24 on 4/8/2017 1:54:00 AM (view original):

Posted by hockey1984 on 3/28/2017 4:49:00 PM (view original):
I'm going to hijack this thread for a second. I honestly can't see offering a max deal to a pitcher. Even my most rediculous pitcher (99 Stam, 33 dur) still only pitched 41 games max. Even if he wins all of that, it's a quarter of the season. 20% to a third of your cash is a lot for that. Maybe some day I might spend a max deal on a position player who is in for all 162, but I doubt it.

But a pitcher has much more impact in 1 game than a position player does. It's a tradeoff. A star pitcher is going to have a huge impact in 35 games. A position player that plays 35 games is not going to that same effect on a team. I look at 35 starts from a pitcher like it's 150 games from a hitter.

Now this i can get behind, sorta. I'll expland on this. For regular season I'd take position players over pitchers. Though a pitcher has a big impact, if you have a great starter that goes 8 innings and then your closer blows the save, your starters effort is null.

In the playoffs though, a pitchers effort is huge. Having a guy who can pitch 7-8 solid innings twice in a 5 game series or potentially 3 times in a 7 game, that value is immeasurable. In my one league, I made the last wildcard spot on game 162. The regular season is more important so I'd prefer a position player. In my other league, we won 112 and got a first round bye, an ace pitcher seems more important for that team.

Posted by hockey1984 on 3/28/2017 4:49:00 PM (view original):
I'm going to hijack this thread for a second. I honestly can't see offering a max deal to a pitcher. Even my most rediculous pitcher (99 Stam, 33 dur) still only pitched 41 games max. Even if he wins all of that, it's a quarter of the season. 20% to a third of your cash is a lot for that. Maybe some day I might spend a max deal on a position player who is in for all 162, but I doubt it.

It's because of the playoffs. There's so many off-days you can do a 3-man rotation, and all of a sudden 1/5 of your innings becomes 2/5 or even 3/5 of your innings if his dur is high enough, definitely 3/7th of your innings. So yes even one super-stud SP can steal you a playoff series, or occasionally an entire playoffs

I was fortunate enough to win WS in Riley S41. I won Div 3-0, NLCS 4-2 and WS 4-0. I only had a 3 man rotation the entire time. These are 75-80 stamina with 25ish Dur guys.

Posted by pjfoster13 on 4/10/2017 10:42:00 AM (view original):

Posted by hockey1984 on 3/28/2017 4:49:00 PM (view original):
I'm going to hijack this thread for a second. I honestly can't see offering a max deal to a pitcher. Even my most rediculous pitcher (99 Stam, 33 dur) still only pitched 41 games max. Even if he wins all of that, it's a quarter of the season. 20% to a third of your cash is a lot for that. Maybe some day I might spend a max deal on a position player who is in for all 162, but I doubt it.

It's because of the playoffs. There's so many off-days you can do a 3-man rotation, and all of a sudden 1/5 of your innings becomes 2/5 or even 3/5 of your innings if his dur is high enough, definitely 3/7th of your innings. So yes even one super-stud SP can steal you a playoff series, or occasionally an entire playoffs

I can get behind this. That being said, the most I ever spent on a guy was, I think $15 million for one season.

Agree with Mike about pitchers, in part because of the reason he stated, but also because replacement value is pretty high in HBD for position players.

The basic concept is that there are several ways to fill a position. Replacement value for position players is high because you can put a hard-hitting DH in RF, or play a pure glove at SS, or platoon at C, etc. It's really hard to find an HBD position player who hits AND fields so well that he's a ton better than replacement; you're almost always better off balancing your position players and saving your money for pitching. The occasional ARod clone who gets posted here is an exception, but the fact that they get posted lets you know how rare they are.

OTOH, pitchers have to pitch; there's no level of glove or bunting ability that will substitute for a pitcher who can't pitch.

So a guy who can throw 240 IP with a 2.50 ERA gets a max from me without a thought, and if my budget is right 220 IP with a 2.90 will do it. And in my worlds there's almost always 2-3 guys as good as least the second guy.

Posted by dedelman on 4/10/2017 4:56:00 PM (view original):
Agree with Mike about pitchers, in part because of the reason he stated, but also because replacement value is pretty high in HBD for position players.

The basic concept is that there are several ways to fill a position. Replacement value for position players is high because you can put a hard-hitting DH in RF, or play a pure glove at SS, or platoon at C, etc. It's really hard to find an HBD position player who hits AND fields so well that he's a ton better than replacement; you're almost always better off balancing your position players and saving your money for pitching. The occasional ARod clone who gets posted here is an exception, but the fact that they get posted lets you know how rare they are.

OTOH, pitchers have to pitch; there's no level of glove or bunting ability that will substitute for a pitcher who can't pitch.

So a guy who can throw 240 IP with a 2.50 ERA gets a max from me without a thought, and if my budget is right 220 IP with a 2.90 will do it. And in my worlds there's almost always 2-3 guys as good as least the second guy.

I think the thing is too, it depends what the team need is. My San Diego 'black hole' defence (hey, that's a good name, I should change the team name to Black Holes) can make a lot of mediocre pitchers have the stats you are talking about. For that squad for me, if a pitcher is throwing over a 3 ERA he is considered to be having a bad season.

the best example I can offer of that is:

https://www.whatifsports.com/hbd/Pages/Popups/PlayerStats.aspx?pid=5398902

if you look at just his ERA for the past 3 seasons, plus the fact that he can throw almost 300 innings he is a max contract guy (pretend he is 30 and going into FA). But that is because that is what my park, squad and settings set my pitchers up to be.

If i can land a corner player that hits 40+ homers and 100+ RBI's in my park, that is invaluable to me because, in most of my games, the difference of 1 run here or there or breaking a 0-0 tie in the 12th inning in invaluable.

edit: https://www.whatifsports.com/hbd/Pages/Popups/PlayerRatings.aspx?pid=6054891

https://www.whatifsports.com/hbd/Pages/Popups/PlayerRatings.aspx?pid=5662605

and

https://www.whatifsports.com/hbd/Pages/Popups/PlayerStats.aspx?pid=4589091

all fluctuate around those numbers as well too (sub 3 with 225-240 innings) but I don't think any of them are max contract guys)

You only play half your games, and playoff games, in SD.

Posted by MikeT23 on 4/10/2017 5:35:00 PM (view original):
You only play half your games, and playoff games, in SD.

I'm not sure if your arguement is for or against my guys.

What is the max you would pay for any of the 4 guys I listed assuming they were coming up to FA at the age of 30? (I'm assuming Manzanillo is the most value)