Posted by johnsensing on 3/30/2017 9:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/30/2017 7:51:00 PM (view original):
Businesses don't make money by giving away product. Sales must be made. If the guy getting the freebie is ******** about the product, you do NOT need him. It's just good business.

Your hypo doesn't work here, because if the guy getting the freebie quits, the freebie goes to someone else. The same number of credits go out regardless of number of users, ergo, WIS definitionally wants as many users as possible. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

Oddly enough(sarcasm) you left out the part about the guy getting the freebies ******** about the product. WifS does NOT need him. Plain and simple.

Posted by CoachSpud on 3/30/2017 11:42:00 PM (view original):
"...users should try to keep the heat on WIS by any means necessary..."

There's a problem with that thinking, a very serious problem. As a theory it is weak at best. The problem, though, is that in practice around here users "keeping the heat on" are virtually indistinguishable from two-year-olds sitting in their high chair crying loudly and throwing food all over the kitchen. I don't think WIS ignores valid input from users. I don't even think WIS ignores misguided attempts at valid input from users. But that two-year-old, even his mother isn't going to reward his behavior if she's smart.

Spud, I don't know if you have another ID or not but assuming you don't for argument's sake, I see you've only been here for around two years. Having been here for more than a decade i can tell you that from personal experience trying to deal with CS, they really don't care all that much even if it's valid input or not. I can't count the number of times that someone has posted a suggestion they made to CS (good suggestions sent in a very well written ticket) and still got the canned "We'll add it to our list for future consideration" response.

The game definitely took a dramatic turn for the worse when Fox bought the game and Tarek was fired. WIS was Tarek's baby and he could be very protective of it from time to time but at least HE would listen to suggestions, be active in the forums, and actively work to improve the game. Can't say the same after he sold it to Fox. Worst thing that ever happened to the game, by far, bar none.

"Spud, I don't know if you have another ID or not but assuming you don't for argument's sake..."

Oops, wrong. However, to consider your point, I am sure that occasionally WIS sees constructive input from its customers, and gives such input the consideration it deserves. I am sure that every user thinks his every idea is the best thing since sliced bread, valid or most often not. I am just as sure that WIS does not have infinite resources. And I recall that Tarek was more active on the forums and more tolerant of the two-year-olds than they had any right to expect. Whether that was a good or bad thing is open to interpretation -- was he an enabler of two-year-olds, setting the bar far too low as far as expected conduct in the forums? Do we have him to blame just a bit for the haters in the forums, such as the totally off-topic hate post immediately beneath your post? So you see, your post can be accurate and still not refute the points I made.

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/31/2017 9:45:00 AM (view original):

Posted by johnsensing on 3/30/2017 9:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/30/2017 7:51:00 PM (view original):
Businesses don't make money by giving away product. Sales must be made. If the guy getting the freebie is ******** about the product, you do NOT need him. It's just good business.

Your hypo doesn't work here, because if the guy getting the freebie quits, the freebie goes to someone else. The same number of credits go out regardless of number of users, ergo, WIS definitionally wants as many users as possible. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

Oddly enough(sarcasm) you left out the part about the guy getting the freebies ******** about the product. WifS does NOT need him. Plain and simple.

You're wrong about WIS needing the guy who's playing for free (whether he's ******** or not), for the reasons I stated in my post. Not surprised you didn't respond to that -- you and spud must read from the same playbook. But also consider this: maybe the guy "********" about the product (whether he's playing for free or not) genuinely wants the product to be better, and is posting on the forums to try to convince others that his ideas would in fact improve the product. As others have stated, submitting tickets to CS is the equivalent to talking to a wall.

Posted by CoachSpud on 3/31/2017 11:25:00 AM (view original):
"Spud, I don't know if you have another ID or not but assuming you don't for argument's sake..."

Oops, wrong. However, to consider your point, I am sure that occasionally WIS sees constructive input from its customers, and gives such input the consideration it deserves. I am sure that every user thinks his every idea is the best thing since sliced bread, valid or most often not. I am just as sure that WIS does not have infinite resources. And I recall that Tarek was more active on the forums and more tolerant of the two-year-olds than they had any right to expect. Whether that was a good or bad thing is open to interpretation -- was he an enabler of two-year-olds, setting the bar far too low as far as expected conduct in the forums? Do we have him to blame just a bit for the haters in the forums, such as the totally off-topic hate post immediately beneath your post? So you see, your post can be accurate and still not refute the points I made.

Spud, in your recent posts, you make two major assumptions: (1) "I don't think WIS ignores valid input from users."; and (2) "I am sure that ... WIS ... gives [constructive] input the consideration it deserves." Can you give me any evidence at all that, in 3.0, either of your assumptions is accurate? My experience is the exact opposite. I won't list all of the (in many cases obvious) good-faith suggestions that have been made ad nauseum to improve the product -- you know what they are -- what has WIS done to implement any of them?

Posted by johnsensing on 3/31/2017 12:28:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/31/2017 9:45:00 AM (view original):

Posted by johnsensing on 3/30/2017 9:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/30/2017 7:51:00 PM (view original):
Businesses don't make money by giving away product. Sales must be made. If the guy getting the freebie is ******** about the product, you do NOT need him. It's just good business.

Your hypo doesn't work here, because if the guy getting the freebie quits, the freebie goes to someone else. The same number of credits go out regardless of number of users, ergo, WIS definitionally wants as many users as possible. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

Oddly enough(sarcasm) you left out the part about the guy getting the freebies ******** about the product. WifS does NOT need him. Plain and simple.

You're wrong about WIS needing the guy who's playing for free (whether he's ******** or not), for the reasons I stated in my post. Not surprised you didn't respond to that -- you and spud must read from the same playbook. But also consider this: maybe the guy "********" about the product (whether he's playing for free or not) genuinely wants the product to be better, and is posting on the forums to try to convince others that his ideas would in fact improve the product. As others have stated, submitting tickets to CS is the equivalent to talking to a wall.

WifS does NOT need the guy who is openly ******** about the product. As I said, if I was a n00b and stumbled across the forum before I purchased a team, I wouldn't bother. The guy constantly ******** is running customers away. I mentioned the candy store with the guy standing outside telling everyone who walks near that the candy sucks. The owner calls the cops and has him removed. You know why? Because he's hurting the business.

I don't disagree that WifS would like to have 900 in every world. But they do not need the constant complainer.

Most "great" ideas posted are ones that help 1/3 of the users(I think this thread is a prime example). That sort of change isn't all that "great".

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/31/2017 12:35:00 PM (view original):

Posted by johnsensing on 3/31/2017 12:28:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/31/2017 9:45:00 AM (view original):

Posted by johnsensing on 3/30/2017 9:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/30/2017 7:51:00 PM (view original):
Businesses don't make money by giving away product. Sales must be made. If the guy getting the freebie is ******** about the product, you do NOT need him. It's just good business.

Your hypo doesn't work here, because if the guy getting the freebie quits, the freebie goes to someone else. The same number of credits go out regardless of number of users, ergo, WIS definitionally wants as many users as possible. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

Oddly enough(sarcasm) you left out the part about the guy getting the freebies ******** about the product. WifS does NOT need him. Plain and simple.

You're wrong about WIS needing the guy who's playing for free (whether he's ******** or not), for the reasons I stated in my post. Not surprised you didn't respond to that -- you and spud must read from the same playbook. But also consider this: maybe the guy "********" about the product (whether he's playing for free or not) genuinely wants the product to be better, and is posting on the forums to try to convince others that his ideas would in fact improve the product. As others have stated, submitting tickets to CS is the equivalent to talking to a wall.

WifS does NOT need the guy who is openly ******** about the product. As I said, if I was a n00b and stumbled across the forum before I purchased a team, I wouldn't bother. The guy constantly ******** is running customers away. I mentioned the candy store with the guy standing outside telling everyone who walks near that the candy sucks. The owner calls the cops and has him removed. You know why? Because he's hurting the business.

I don't disagree that WifS would like to have 900 in every world. But they do not need the constant complainer.

Most "great" ideas posted are ones that help 1/3 of the users(I think this thread is a prime example). That sort of change isn't all that "great".

Who reads the forums before signing up? Does anyone? I'm genuinely curious, because I did not. For that reason, I doubt your theory that forum complaining is driving people away/hurting the business -- in fact, I doubt the forums lessen anyone's enjoyment of the game (assuming the user is not getting personally attacked, trolled, etc.), but if they do, stop reading them and play the game. If you like the game, you'll keep playing -- if you don't, you'll quit. Stated another way, anyone who quits the game, or doesn't start playing, because of the forums probably wasn't ever going to be a productive user anyway. That's why your candy store analogy is pretty crappy -- I don't have to walk by the guy saying the product sucks, and I don't even have to know about him if I don't want to (i.e., the "block" feature).

I continue to believe that yours and spud's so-called complainers are users who very passionately want the game to be improved, and are extremely frustrated in their belief that WIS apparently doesn't share that goal.

I don't know if anyone does any sort of research before signing up. They might, they might not. I imagine "crossovers" from other games do. Either way, constant complaining about the product surely doesn't help sell the game to anyone. Can you at least agree with that?

Complainers are complainers. They're not so-called. Valid points or not, they are complainers. There are suggestions and there are complaints. You know the difference. Either way, one man's improvement is another man's destruction. 3.0 is a fine example. Some left after it's implementation. Some, myself included, rejoined. So these passionate fellows you speak of might want the game improved. And those "improvements" may destroy the game for others.

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/31/2017 1:20:00 PM (view original):
I don't know if anyone does any sort of research before signing up. They might, they might not. I imagine "crossovers" from other games do. Either way, constant complaining about the product surely doesn't help sell the game to anyone. Can you at least agree with that?

Complainers are complainers. They're not so-called. Valid points or not, they are complainers. There are suggestions and there are complaints. You know the difference. Either way, one man's improvement is another man's destruction. 3.0 is a fine example. Some left after it's implementation. Some, myself included, rejoined. So these passionate fellows you speak of might want the game improved. And those "improvements" may destroy the game for others.

Come on now -- I want to give you more credit that this, but you're making it hard. You and I both know that there are improvements that the vast majority of users (all but spud?) want, and which make lots of gameplay sense. To name two of the least controversial (there are others that in my opinion should also be implemented): (1) a "dead period" at the start of the second session; (2) the way the top 10 considering schools are listed on a recruit's page -- my recollection is that even you agree with these. For some reason, despite the fact that these have been on the table for months, WIS has not given any indication as to whether they will be implemented, and if so, when. That is: (1) lousy customer service; and (2) frustrating. So, are the people who post about how ridiculous it is that WIS has not implemented such improvements "suggestors" or "complainers"? And given that WIS apparently has the policy of ignoring "suggestions" (or "complaints," for that matter), what the hell is a user who thinks the game needs improving to do? Sit quietly and let you and spud just carpet-bomb the forums with "all is well" posts?

Posted by johnsensing on 3/31/2017 1:46:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/31/2017 1:20:00 PM (view original):
I don't know if anyone does any sort of research before signing up. They might, they might not. I imagine "crossovers" from other games do. Either way, constant complaining about the product surely doesn't help sell the game to anyone. Can you at least agree with that?

Complainers are complainers. They're not so-called. Valid points or not, they are complainers. There are suggestions and there are complaints. You know the difference. Either way, one man's improvement is another man's destruction. 3.0 is a fine example. Some left after it's implementation. Some, myself included, rejoined. So these passionate fellows you speak of might want the game improved. And those "improvements" may destroy the game for others.

Come on now -- I want to give you more credit that this, but you're making it hard. You and I both know that there are improvements that the vast majority of users (all but spud?) want, and which make lots of gameplay sense. To name two of the least controversial (there are others that in my opinion should also be implemented): (1) a "dead period" at the start of the second session; (2) the way the top 10 considering schools are listed on a recruit's page -- my recollection is that even you agree with these. For some reason, despite the fact that these have been on the table for months, WIS has not given any indication as to whether they will be implemented, and if so, when. That is: (1) lousy customer service; and (2) frustrating. So, are the people who post about how ridiculous it is that WIS has not implemented such improvements "suggestors" or "complainers"? And given that WIS apparently has the policy of ignoring "suggestions" (or "complaints," for that matter), what the hell is a user who thinks the game needs improving to do? Sit quietly and let you and spud just carpet-bomb the forums with "all is well" posts?

Great point johsensing.

So who gets to be the forum police and decides what you can and can't complain about?

Mike says you can't complain about EEs. But you can complain about new users not being able to recruit in their first season. And you can also complain about the top 10 considering list. But you can't complain about losing a VH to H roll.

As for the negativity of the forums - Mike you contribute heavily to the negativity. Yet you mention over and over about how it's bad for the game and users wouldn't want to play if they came to the forums. If you care about making the game better for new users then stop adding to the negativity. Simple.

Bullshit. I've never said you can't complain about EE. I just don't think we need new EE threads daily. EE affects a small percentage of users. Certainly not commiserate with the number of threads about EE. It's just annoying as hell to check the forum and see "EE issue!!" all the damn time. Bump an old thread for Pete's sake. There is definitely one on the front page.

As to your point, JSS, yes, maybe there are some "issues" we see. Maybe WifS doesn't see it that way. Maybe it's not an easy fix. Don't know. I don't think "all is well". I just think repeating the same thing daily is tiresome.

If I bring negativity, it's in response to the CONSTANT EE COMPLAINING. Or someone ripping me. Other than that, I'm a pretty nice guy.

BTW, I'm not sure everyone is in agreement about the "dead period". It's been mentioned in order to help those suffering from EE. There are a lot of users who aren't into helping the rich stay rich. Personally, rather than a "dead period", I've made two suggestions:

1. Far more Late signing preferences
2. Limiting Top 200 players to D1 only. Top 125 at each position to D1/D2

My guess is there are about 100 users at D1. That's 2 each from the top 200 if they can beat SIMAI.

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/31/2017 2:11:00 PM (view original):
Bullshit. I've never said you can't complain about EE. I just don't think we need new EE threads daily. EE affects a small percentage of users. Certainly not commiserate with the number of threads about EE. It's just annoying as hell to check the forum and see "EE issue!!" all the damn time. Bump an old thread for Pete's sake. There is definitely one on the front page.

As to your point, JSS, yes, maybe there are some "issues" we see. Maybe WifS doesn't see it that way. Maybe it's not an easy fix. Don't know. I don't think "all is well". I just think repeating the same thing daily is tiresome.

If I bring negativity, it's in response to the CONSTANT EE COMPLAINING. Or someone ripping me. Other than that, I'm a pretty nice guy.

You tell people to stop complaining about EEs all the time, so that is simply false (take your own advice about being tiresome).

But leaving that aside, your second paragraph makes my point as to why WIS customer service has been so bad on this. No one knows what they're thinking, so there's lots of frustration, and there's likely people thinking that if they raise enough hell, WIS may actually listen (I highly doubt they're listening at all, but who knows?). If WIS came out this afternoon and said what they're going to change (if anything) about EEs, that would likely curtail complaining very quickly. Either: (1) people get what they want, and they're happy; (2) they don't get what they want, so they're ****** (and maybe quit) -- but in either case, they know what is going to happen, so there's no reason to "suggest" or "complain" anymore. The ship has sailed. Here, all we've been told (months ago) is that "we're looking at it." That's not good enough.

Meh. I don't think I tell people to stop complaining. I think I tell them that they're annoying and could bump their last complaint thread instead of creating a new one.

I've said this before but I do agree that the carrot they've been dangling for months is terrible. Do something or say they're not doing anything. I have a feeling that EE is working as intended. But, if that's the case, simply say it and let everyone move on. Stay and play it as is or quit. Just close the book on EE.