BABA O REILLY - GOOD RIDDENCE Topic

In Canada we've had single-payer universal health care for over half a century.

Canadians overwhelmingly approve:

The online survey of 2,207 respondents by Leger Marketing found universal health care was almost universally loved, with 94 per cent calling it an important source of collective pride -- including 74 per cent who called it "very important."


I'm all for a free market economy; free market society, not so much. Not everything should be for sale.
5/4/2017 11:09 PM
To be clear, I'm not advocating "high risk pools." Those are far too restrictive. I want fully integrated insurance with guaranteed coverage for everyone at a fixed price. From the consumer's perspective, nothing should change from the ACA except that I would like individuals to pay the "healthy payer" rate and government subsidies to cover the rest. Not out of some limited fund but as an uncapped expenditure to be negotiated annually with coverage providers.
5/4/2017 11:10 PM
Posted by crazystengel on 5/4/2017 11:10:00 PM (view original):
In Canada we've had single-payer universal health care for over half a century.

Canadians overwhelmingly approve:

The online survey of 2,207 respondents by Leger Marketing found universal health care was almost universally loved, with 94 per cent calling it an important source of collective pride -- including 74 per cent who called it "very important."


I'm all for a free market economy; free market society, not so much. Not everything should be for sale.
According to the most recent Commonwealth Fund study, involving surveys of patients and providers and WHO data on health outcomes, Canada lags behind most of the world's healthiest countries in quality of care:
5/4/2017 11:16 PM
Posted by dahsdebater on 5/4/2017 11:05:00 PM (view original):
You can make the argument sound as pretty as you like. There aren't fewer people dying since the ACA passed. This is a fact. I don't know what your conditions are. I can't tell you you're wrong. I hope you're wrong because I don't want to see anybody dying needlessly. And I'm sure as hell not defending the House bill.

But you aren't making a logical argument. You're making an emotional argument. The root of your actual point is "Health care is a right. Everybody should have healthcare. Therefore, single payer is the best way to handle our healthcare system." Those are 2 almost entirely unrelated things you're presenting as a logical progression. It's not. There are other ways of handling healthcare. Single-payer hasn't worked all that well in Canada, and while it has worked well in Taiwan it has been prohibitively expensive. You translate what Taiwan spends on Healthcare to the US GDP/population and propose that spending you get laughed out of town. Even left-leaning Democrats don't think we can spend hundreds of billions more per year on healthcare. So neither of the existing single-payer systems provides a roadmap to a feasible solution in the near future in this country. Hybrid public/private systems are much more cost-effective. The ACA is just a bad example.

As far as pre-existing conditions go, my solution would be to remove price protections but preserve coverage protections. Then provide a federal subsidy for individual payers with pre-existing conditions to make their effective price equivalent to a "healthy" person. The insuree doesn't see a price hike associated with their condition(s), and the government can negotiate directly with the insurance companies for what added premiums they should be paying to subsidize the coverage. This shifts the burden for pre-existing conditions from the general population of insured people to the tax-paying public. Right now, people paying for personal coverage are bearing an undue portion of the burden, and they tend to be on the lower end of the income spectrum. If you shift the burden to the taxpayers, it shifts more of the burden to wealthier people. I can see why many Republicans wouldn't like it, and I'm not a fan of increased Federal spending, but from my perspective this solves a lot of problems and provides a more equitable distribution of the cost of healthcare for people with pre-existing conditions without resorting to a single-payer system.
At least you're discussing actual solutions.

I'm willing to discuss actual solutions. Single-payer is a starting point. I'm not saying it necessarily has to go there.

But if you want to pull the ACA, yes, you'd better HAVE a real solution. I'm not going to sit here and tell you it's the best thing ever, or even the best alternative to single-payer. It definitely has flaws -- though a great many of those flaws can be attributed to states refusing to expand Medicaid to score political points. But yeah, it's not a great option. Ironic point here, of course, is that this is the Republican plan itself. Look it up, ACA is basically the Heritage Foundation plan from the 90s. A more liberal plan would've been single-payer...

You raise reasonable points. I find the complaints about Canadian healthcare to be overblown when I actually look at the data. Wait times is often complained about -- I wrote a paper on this for a college class a few years ago, their times are not significantly worse than the US except in a very few specialist cases.

...where did Taiwan come from? Literally no progressive I've ever talked to has ever suggested Taiwan as a model. And you explain very well why. There's a reason we tend to look at Europe. (EDIT: and the data in the above post supports the European model as well. Single-payer forms do not necessitate going to Canada either.)

So, looking through your suggestions... what exactly is the difference between your proposal, and single-payer, other than that your proposal still allows private companies to clean profits off the top on healthcare? 'cause that pretty much sounds like a Medicare for All expansion. I'm down with that... though I'm not sure this does much to deal with all the problems healthcare has, I can see the pattern you have in mind and how it could be applied to solve most everything. But as I said, that comes pretty close to being Medicare for All... which would definitely be a good step as well.

As a general comment, I have *always, always* had better experiences working with government agencies than I have with companies. I would never, ever put something in the hands of the private sector if I thought it critical and it were up to me. I've seen far too much crap otherwise. At least with the government, if you're getting screwed over, you can vote them out. Not much you can do about big money corporations doing it -- unless, as I noted, nonparticipation is a viable option. Free markets are great when you have easy entrance and exit. But that's a completely necessary component to the health of the market.
5/4/2017 11:22 PM
dahsdebater, sure, from that study we finish ahead of just one country (I won't say which one!). I don't think my previous post suggested we were the best in the world, or the best among a group of 11 wealthy countries. Someone from that group of 11 has to finish 10th, right? That doesn't mean 10th is bad.

Anyway, my post was about what our health care system means to us, and our satisfaction with it. If it were as bad as Trump says ("total disaster" and "catastrophic" I believe were among his carefully selected adjectives), I don't think 94% of us would be proud of it.
5/4/2017 11:25 PM
canada's rating is ahead of us for a fraction of the spending...imagine their system with more resources.
5/5/2017 12:25 AM
Doc........ you should care about rural hospitals because IF they all shut down all us poor rural folks will be plugging up YOUR local hospital.
Many citizens already do their best to avoid Payson's hospital for any surgery or other serious procedure due to notorious failures and short-comings.
Those citizens all go to the Phoenix hospitals........... imagine (say) quadrupling the amount of out-of-town patients and then speculate on how YOUR visit to a hospital like that will go. Medical treatment quality in many rural areas are already 3rd world level. And having (even) high deductible insurance under the ACA (Obamacare) is highly preferable to NOT being insured at all, largely BECAUSE of the requirements imposed on the insurance companies by the Feds. Like the pre-existing condition coverage, or the mandating of affordable preventive care. The Republican party just proved (once again) who they REALLY work for. And it sure isn't us citizens! They want to give us poor folk trickle down healthcare. That will do to the middle class exactly what trickle down economics did to us. Decimate us. The difference this time is, it won't make us poorer........ it will slowly git rid of us!! Exactly what characters like Trump really want........ the elimination of everyone who doesn't worship the dollar and cowtie to the rich and famous! I say eliminate the rich ********. (like Trump) then maybe we'll all find a way to pull together as a citizenry. STOP watching your damn TV's and other major media!!! It's corporate brainwashing designed as entertainment. We NEED a revolution and you folks that support the (current) right's agenda are on the wrong side of the battle.

Your OWN congressperson is just as bad as mine. Vote them out! ALL incumbents need to go of BOTH parties!
IF the Republican agenda continues to succeed in decimating the middle class I (for the very 1st time) will be joining the masses in the streets marching against the tyranny of my government. I never even marched or protested back in the 60's and that was when I was young!

But as out of touch as the Nixon admin. was it wasn't an all-out attack on the poor. These current repugs have NO concern at all for those who can't afford to donate to their re-election campaign. I will NEVER understand how a truly "poor" person can think a huckster like Trump is going to be concerned with the disadvantaged. I blame it on stupidity caused by lack of education or (perhaps) inherent intelligence short-comings. You may as well count on the tooth fairy to deliver an economic future to you. It's just as plausible.
5/5/2017 10:30 AM (edited)
i very much agree laramie....unfortunately race is also often a factor as to why many people vote republican when it is so counter intuitive that they do so.
5/5/2017 11:11 AM
Posted by dino27 on 5/5/2017 11:11:00 AM (view original):
i very much agree laramie....unfortunately race is also often a factor as to why many people vote republican when it is so counter intuitive that they do so.
That is pure crap. Plenty of white folks voted for Obama once or twice...then again, it was counter intuitive to vote for him. You might be onto something...

I understand rural/regional hospitals' plight. I deliver to them every day. I know they are the only horse in town. The 1040B subsidy programs make sense. But many hospitals, big and small, are underpaid by many of Obamacare's pay charts regarding procedures. If there is competition, those hospitals stand a better chance of accepting insurance from AHCA patients. Now you have Iowa losing the last insurance provider. You may have guaranteed coverage for pre existing conditions, but no insurance. Another example that ACA is indeed failing...

There is a lot of speculation whether or not AHCA adequately provides enough to those needing pre existing condition coverage, and at an affordable cost. Republicans will have to prove what's in the bill is as advertised.

For those of you who think Gingrich is a loon...spare 7 minutes to hear his take on where this bill stands, and where it is likely headed...


http://video.foxnews.com/v/5423159189001/gingrichs-advice-to-republicans-on-selling-health-care-bill

5/5/2017 4:08 PM
Is Trump really on shaky ground with the Russian investigation?

http://nypost.com/2017/05/04/bad-news-for-the-trump-russia-tinfoil-hat-brigade/
5/5/2017 4:18 PM
This post has a rating of , which is below the default threshold.
I'm in the legal field. And believe me, when the FBI issues warrants, it's a VERY good chance that they know something that we don't!
5/5/2017 4:30 PM
um, i kinda like the Trump chaos
5/5/2017 4:37 PM
The rich always get richer. They did very well under Obama too. Had Obama and his super majority in Congress eliminated tax loopholes, perhaps they would have paid more in taxes. And they would have gotten billions from Wall Street fat cats, had they actually held them accountable for what they did with all the mess they made with the Freddie/Fannie commercial loans...cost this country 1/3 of its wealth a decade ago. Jerks like Jamie Dimon got off with a slap on the wrist.
5/5/2017 5:03 PM
Posted by mixtroy on 5/5/2017 4:30:00 PM (view original):
I'm in the legal field. And believe me, when the FBI issues warrants, it's a VERY good chance that they know something that we don't!
You're gonna need to be a little more specific about capacity to lend any credence whatsoever to this statement. Particularly when you come across as a borderline tinfoil hat conspiracy theorist.
5/5/2017 5:10 PM
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