Posted by MikeT23 on 8/9/2017 5:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 8/9/2017 5:05:00 PM (view original):
Mike's arguments are so irrelevant and ignorant in my mind. There are situations where there are no good answers. If Lincoln had waited longer, in all likelihood the war would have lasted LONGER, and the tons of slaves would have continued to be enslaved for a longer amount of time, not to mention a longer divided USA. What, you want the CSA to actually industrialize so they have a chance? Lincoln had to weigh these options in his mind, and IMO he made the right choice.

So you don't think people evolve? That their thought process remains constant? That there is no way a southern man in 1864 might have said "You know, regardless of US law, slaves are not property"?

That's dumb.

Isn't that speculative nonsense?

Jeez. You're not my only audience. He has most votes for Best Prez Ever in this thread. I was pointing out why he wasn't.

Your points are all speculation. Neither of us know how long slavery would have remained legal or acceptable. That's why I've largely ignored them. I don't think it would have been 50 years but have no way to prove it.

(BTW Mike, who did you vote for in each category? Just curious)

(I voted Jefferson, Lincoln, T Roosevelt, F Roosevelt, Obama, and Jefferson respectively, for the record)

Mike's fairy tale:

Hey man, the south was just minding their own business. Yeah, we know slavery is horrible now but, back then, slaves were just property. Lincoln attacked without even giving negotiation a shot. If he had just waited, the south would have voluntarily given up slaves soon enough. No need to kill 600,000 people.

Reality:

The South relied on millions of slaves. As soon as they thought Lincoln was even considering abolishment, they seceded. They made it clear in their secession declarations that this was not negotiable. Abolishment was a non-starter. Lincoln was going to have take the slaves over the South's dead bodies. So he did. And he was a great president because of it.

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/9/2017 5:29:00 PM (view original):
Jeez. You're not my only audience. He has most votes for Best Prez Ever in this thread. I was pointing out why he wasn't.

Your points are all speculation. Neither of us know how long slavery would have remained legal or acceptable. That's why I've largely ignored them. I don't think it would have been 50 years but have no way to prove it.

My point about Border States was not speculation, also Slavery would have been legal in the South for a LONG TIME, to your point Women couldn't vote until 1920, and slavery was what kept the southern economy alive, that's mostly why they seceded. Slavery wouldn't be abolished until the CSA built up their infrastructure, and so 50 years is probably conservative. Come on Mike, you are arguing against yourself, now

Posted by tangplay on 8/9/2017 5:30:00 PM (view original):
(I voted Jefferson, Lincoln, T Roosevelt, F Roosevelt, Obama, and Jefferson respectively, for the record)

I voted the exact same except I hit Washington on accident. Didn't vote for all-time.

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/9/2017 5:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by The Taint on 8/9/2017 5:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/9/2017 5:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 8/9/2017 5:05:00 PM (view original):
Mike's arguments are so irrelevant and ignorant in my mind. There are situations where there are no good answers. If Lincoln had waited longer, in all likelihood the war would have lasted LONGER, and the tons of slaves would have continued to be enslaved for a longer amount of time, not to mention a longer divided USA. What, you want the CSA to actually industrialize so they have a chance? Lincoln had to weigh these options in his mind, and IMO he made the right choice.

So you don't think people evolve? That their thought process remains constant? That there is no way a southern man in 1864 might have said "You know, regardless of US law, slaves are not property"?

That's dumb.

Isn't that speculative nonsense?

Nope. People's viewpoints evolve. Here's one:
"WTF is wrong with homos?"
"Bah, they're gay. So what?"
"Why in the hell do they insist on getting married?"
"Let 'em get married. I don't care. Let them and the religious right argue over it."

Took me 20-25 years to go from "Something is wrong with them" to "Don't care if they're married."

I'm not special. I'm sure other people evolve as well.

Some people's don't hence the Klan is still around.


Pure speculation on your part.

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/9/2017 5:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by The Taint on 8/9/2017 5:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/9/2017 5:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 8/9/2017 5:05:00 PM (view original):
Mike's arguments are so irrelevant and ignorant in my mind. There are situations where there are no good answers. If Lincoln had waited longer, in all likelihood the war would have lasted LONGER, and the tons of slaves would have continued to be enslaved for a longer amount of time, not to mention a longer divided USA. What, you want the CSA to actually industrialize so they have a chance? Lincoln had to weigh these options in his mind, and IMO he made the right choice.

So you don't think people evolve? That their thought process remains constant? That there is no way a southern man in 1864 might have said "You know, regardless of US law, slaves are not property"?

That's dumb.

Isn't that speculative nonsense?

Nope. People's viewpoints evolve. Here's one:
"WTF is wrong with homos?"
"Bah, they're gay. So what?"
"Why in the hell do they insist on getting married?"
"Let 'em get married. I don't care. Let them and the religious right argue over it."

Took me 20-25 years to go from "Something is wrong with them" to "Don't care if they're married."

I'm not special. I'm sure other people evolve as well.

YOUR ARGUMENT IS LITERALLY THAT THE SOUTHERN PEOPLE WERE GOING TO EVOLVE THEIR VIEWPOINTS ON SLAVERY IN 4 OR LESS YEARS, AND NOW YOU CONTRADICT YOURSELF SAYING IT TAKES 20+ YEARS FOR PEOPLE TO EVOLVE! Also EVERYTHING WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT IS SPECULATION!

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/9/2017 5:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by The Taint on 8/9/2017 5:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/9/2017 5:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 8/9/2017 5:05:00 PM (view original):
Mike's arguments are so irrelevant and ignorant in my mind. There are situations where there are no good answers. If Lincoln had waited longer, in all likelihood the war would have lasted LONGER, and the tons of slaves would have continued to be enslaved for a longer amount of time, not to mention a longer divided USA. What, you want the CSA to actually industrialize so they have a chance? Lincoln had to weigh these options in his mind, and IMO he made the right choice.

So you don't think people evolve? That their thought process remains constant? That there is no way a southern man in 1864 might have said "You know, regardless of US law, slaves are not property"?

That's dumb.

Isn't that speculative nonsense?

Nope. People's viewpoints evolve. Here's one:
"WTF is wrong with homos?"
"Bah, they're gay. So what?"
"Why in the hell do they insist on getting married?"
"Let 'em get married. I don't care. Let them and the religious right argue over it."

Took me 20-25 years to go from "Something is wrong with them" to "Don't care if they're married."

I'm not special. I'm sure other people evolve as well.

YOUR ARGUMENT IS LITERALLY THAT THE SOUTHERN PEOPLE WERE GOING TO EVOLVE THEIR VIEWPOINTS ON SLAVERY IN 4 OR LESS YEARS, AND NOW YOU CONTRADICT YOURSELF SAYING IT TAKES 20+ YEARS FOR PEOPLE TO EVOLVE! Also EVERYTHING WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT IS SPECULATION!

So, what's Lincoln's BABIP compared to Jefferson's ? What about Roosevelt's FIP? MikeT is talking about WAR, so shouldn't Brad Radke should be part of the discussion too?

Enquiring minds want to know.

Posted by toddcommish on 8/9/2017 5:37:00 PM (view original):
So, what's Lincoln's BABIP compared to Jefferson's ? What about Roosevelt's FIP? MikeT is talking about WAR, so shouldn't Brad Radke should be part of the discussion too?

Enquiring minds want to know.

lol

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/8/2017 2:22:00 PM (view original):
We know Lincoln wanted to end slavery. SC gave him reason to start a war. He took it. That's "orchestration".

fundamentally wrong. wrong as wrong gets. nope

Lincoln did not want to end slavery. time to open a book, rak

i ain sayin that you never. i'm just sayin on this Q you are wrongo

the gay thing is weird, huh

the kids today they just don't care. we go along for the ride

it was hard in the locker room back in the day for the gays

pardon my ignorance just really don't want to shower next to a guy with a hardy. but maybe gays don't get hardys in the shower they're just cleaning their parts or some such

its like the transgender bullsh*t who cares where you **** and **** but it turns out some places for some people that's a sexual situation