This is 180 degrees off of correct - all of the evidence is that fastbreak does NOT fatigue your opponent's team significantly, while it increases your own fatigue substantially. It also reduces your field goal percentage and increases your turnover rate. The advantage of uptempo is what shoe referenced - by increasing the number of possessions, it decreases variance. So your average per-possession advantage is actually reduced, but your variance is also reduced. If you have a big enough advantage, this can mean you'll see less upsets. But my experience has been that uptempo is rarely worth it unless you're playing a team that could be really decimated by foul trouble (IE has at least one or two positions with questionable depth).

I absolutely do not agree with your last paragraph. I very rarely see any team running any set make the F4 while leaning heavily on uptempo. There are some, but I would definitely say they are a minority. I got knocked out of the NT last season by a team that ran slowdown every game (while pressing) because they were shallow.

Could be. But i'm just going by what I see. I play D2 only. So maybe that plays into our differences in our discussion. But in Smith this season, the best two teams were tcole's Seattle Pacific and Arfys New Jersey Tech. Both ran uptempo and crushed their opponents tcole won the title.

My Post team was ranked in the top 5 all season. It was composed of Only's left over players, and my TERRIBLE first time RS2 team take over recruits. I thought the team was garbage honestly. But we made the elite 8 running uptempo all season. As a flex press team. What does this all mean? I'm not sure honestly. Haha. Just sharing my thoughts

edit.... I was incorrect about tcole. He didn't run uptempo every game. He ran normal at times as well

Posted by dahsdebater on 7/15/2018 11:44:00 AM (view original):
This is 180 degrees off of correct - all of the evidence is that fastbreak does NOT fatigue your opponent's team significantly, while it increases your own fatigue substantially. It also reduces your field goal percentage and increases your turnover rate. The advantage of uptempo is what shoe referenced - by increasing the number of possessions, it decreases variance. So your average per-possession advantage is actually reduced, but your variance is also reduced. If you have a big enough advantage, this can mean you'll see less upsets. But my experience has been that uptempo is rarely worth it unless you're playing a team that could be really decimated by foul trouble (IE has at least one or two positions with questionable depth).

I absolutely do not agree with your last paragraph. I very rarely see any team running any set make the F4 while leaning heavily on uptempo. There are some, but I would definitely say they are a minority. I got knocked out of the NT last season by a team that ran slowdown every game (while pressing) because they were shallow.

I disagree with most of this.

Going uptempo DOES increase the opponents fatigue. Of course it does. Here's some proof.

Take a look at my games with Memphis. I went slowdown basically all season. Against teams going slowdown or normal, I didn't see any fatigue issues at all. Against Illinois state who was running FB uptempo, I saw substantial fatigue issues. It was a direct result of him going uptempo. Now, he saw even worse issues because his team isn't really constructed to play that style but that's besides the point. It did impact my fatigue levels.

The whole point of going uptempo - especially with FB - is to capitalize on the other team's stamina or depth situation by increasing possessions, increasing fouling opportunities, getting them into foul trouble which then puts them into an even more fatigue disadvantage.

Both my titles at CNU were with FB/Press teams running uptempo all season - including the title game. It gave me an advantage which is why I did it. If depth/stamina/set are equal then yeah, uptempo may not be the choice. But I wouldn't say it's always a bad choice.

Look at mfmyers and his dozen titles. He runs uptempo 100% of the time.

I run uptempo on my fb/press D1 when I can go 12 deep and do not see fatigue issues blowing ft% and possessions. But to me, there was a key mistakes Terps made. Going -1. First, it probably get you more fouls than +1, which is the right set, and second SIMS tend to do better at outside shooting than all humans so you need to offset it. I am going against Staypuft vacated team in IBa, SIM controlled, and It's a game I do not want. I would rather play any human controlled team. I hate coaching against SIM, if it goes sour, not much to do. To finish: you got a bad SIM, probably a result that happens 1 out of 10.

I’m not trying to speak for dahs here but iirc years ago CS/Seble confirmed running uptempo has a much greater effect on your team’s stamina than it does your opponents.

Posted by darnoc29099 on 7/15/2018 3:47:00 PM (view original):
I’m not trying to speak for dahs here but iirc years ago CS/Seble confirmed running uptempo has a much greater effect on your team’s stamina than it does your opponents.

More effect I agree. But it doesn't appear to be nothing.

Posted by darnoc29099 on 7/15/2018 3:47:00 PM (view original):
I’m not trying to speak for dahs here but iirc years ago CS/Seble confirmed running uptempo has a much greater effect on your team’s stamina than it does your opponents.

I believe that. It has to in theory. But it does have an impact on the opponent as well. And if you built your team correctly and have 85ish team stamina, your opponent likely has less stamina. And I would think that is where the advantage comes in. But i'm not trying to argue that i'm right, with people that have more experience than me. I respect my elders haha. I'm just judging by what I've seen along my coaching journey.

Posted by dahsdebater on 7/15/2018 11:44:00 AM (view original):
This is 180 degrees off of correct - all of the evidence is that fastbreak does NOT fatigue your opponent's team significantly, while it increases your own fatigue substantially. It also reduces your field goal percentage and increases your turnover rate. The advantage of uptempo is what shoe referenced - by increasing the number of possessions, it decreases variance. So your average per-possession advantage is actually reduced, but your variance is also reduced. If you have a big enough advantage, this can mean you'll see less upsets. But my experience has been that uptempo is rarely worth it unless you're playing a team that could be really decimated by foul trouble (IE has at least one or two positions with questionable depth).

I absolutely do not agree with your last paragraph. I very rarely see any team running any set make the F4 while leaning heavily on uptempo. There are some, but I would definitely say they are a minority. I got knocked out of the NT last season by a team that ran slowdown every game (while pressing) because they were shallow.

It’s true, uptempo affects your team more than your opponent, which is why the key here, I think, is whether the team is really built for uptempo. If you are subpar in ath, speed, defense (because you need to avoid foul trouble), or ballhandling, you’re not built for uptempo. Even more applicable for stamina. Ideal FB/press teams have those bases covered, and don’t have any problems running uptempo. Every final 4 caliber team I’ve had at ACU, I’ve run uptempo most of the season, even against most humans, and even in the tournament. That won’t be true this year; then again, we are probably not F4 caliber this year, having been beaten up in recruiting, so bench is weak, and team stamina is lower than ideal.

Now, whether or not the team under discussion here is that caliber is not clear. Defense and athleticism are lower than I would like for FB/press uptempo. But against sims, I probably would not have worried about it.

ETA I misread the defense at 60. Team defense of 69 is fine, so strike that part.

Posted by zorzii on 7/15/2018 3:24:00 PM (view original):
I run uptempo on my fb/press D1 when I can go 12 deep and do not see fatigue issues blowing ft% and possessions. But to me, there was a key mistakes Terps made. Going -1. First, it probably get you more fouls than +1, which is the right set, and second SIMS tend to do better at outside shooting than all humans so you need to offset it. I am going against Staypuft vacated team in IBa, SIM controlled, and It's a game I do not want. I would rather play any human controlled team. I hate coaching against SIM, if it goes sour, not much to do. To finish: you got a bad SIM, probably a result that happens 1 out of 10.

“second SIMS tend to do better at outside shooting than all humans so you need to offset it”

This is a really good point, and bears repeating.

Posted by shoe3 on 7/15/2018 4:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by zorzii on 7/15/2018 3:24:00 PM (view original):
I run uptempo on my fb/press D1 when I can go 12 deep and do not see fatigue issues blowing ft% and possessions. But to me, there was a key mistakes Terps made. Going -1. First, it probably get you more fouls than +1, which is the right set, and second SIMS tend to do better at outside shooting than all humans so you need to offset it. I am going against Staypuft vacated team in IBa, SIM controlled, and It's a game I do not want. I would rather play any human controlled team. I hate coaching against SIM, if it goes sour, not much to do. To finish: you got a bad SIM, probably a result that happens 1 out of 10.

“second SIMS tend to do better at outside shooting than all humans so you need to offset it”

This is a really good point, and bears repeating.

I was weak on Reb and his 3pt shooting didn't hurt me. He went 3-12, so I thought -1 would be OK. Maybe -1 got me in more foul trouble, but the foul ratio was definitely not fair. He should of fouled way more than he did.

GREAT input on here guys. REALLY appreciate it. Thanks

Posted by topdogggbm on 7/15/2018 10:08:00 AM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 7/14/2018 6:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by terps21234 on 7/14/2018 1:21:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gomiami1972 on 7/14/2018 1:16:00 PM (view original):
I hate fastbreak and wasn't crazy about the lineup/game plan you used but you should have beaten that team 95 out of 100 times even as it was. I feel for you.

What was wrong with lineup. I went -1 uptempo as I have done all year and beat very good teams

I'm surprised nobody has said anything about this yet. Playing the same defensive depth and tempo in every game is an inherent mistake. And frankly, playing uptempo against most teams is probably not in your best interest ever. Regardless of how deep your team is, I've found uptempo to hurt more often than it helps. It hurts less when you run FB in terms of efficiency, but then it gets you more on the stamina end of things.

I'm not really sure about part of this response. I could easily be wrong. As I don't have your experience. But i'm just going by what I've been taught by some good coaches.

"playing uptempo against most teams is probably not in your best interest ever"

if you run fastbreak/press or anything/press, you build your team around ATH/SPD/DEF and the kicker.... Stamina. So by running uptempo, you bury the other teams fatigue while yours isn't affected as much. I think running uptempo is the ONLY way to maximize your efforts. As running normal does not fatigue the other team as well, which is the main idea with press.

Most successful press teams I've seen, run you in to the ground by running uptempo. And press teams that run normal tend to underachieve. At least from what I've seen.

Thoughts, everyone?

That's another reason I stayed up tempo, his bench was WEAK. I also beat far superior teams by running uptempo to run them in the ground. My 3rd string guards were better than his starters. I did lack ATH, but was going for SP for FB. Next recruiting will go for ATH.

BUT the reason I lost wasn't my def. I avg. giving up 80ppg. I lost because of my offense. I avg. 108ppg and scored 72. My bench didn't score at all. His def. ratings were 59 and Rudd and Shepard didn't score crap and they avg. 7ppg each.

And maybe I should've been more clear too. My arguments weren't based around the team that the OP has. My arguments were based off teams that I've seen that are built strongly for press. (And i'm not saying your team is or isn't, OP. My argument is just general).

In only my 4th season of a complete rebuild at Coker, my team is 2nd in stamina, 3rd in athleticism, 5th in defense, and 10th in speed, in all of D2. As far as ratings go. I'm weak in some areas (horrendous in rebounding), but there's no way anyone could tell me running uptempo is a bad idea with that team. I feel like running anything but, doesn't maximize what i'm great at.

I doubt i win it all, as i'm still lacking in areas and the team is somewhat young. I don't expect to win it all. But I feel I've put the right pieces together to maybe make a good run next season.

And shoe, i'm glad you mentioned ACU.... that team and Arfys West Georgia are the teams i'm trying to mimic. And I see you guys running uptempo. You two have had great success with it. I'll take my chances with that plan.

Posted by terps21234 on 7/15/2018 5:34:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 7/15/2018 10:08:00 AM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 7/14/2018 6:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by terps21234 on 7/14/2018 1:21:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gomiami1972 on 7/14/2018 1:16:00 PM (view original):
I hate fastbreak and wasn't crazy about the lineup/game plan you used but you should have beaten that team 95 out of 100 times even as it was. I feel for you.

What was wrong with lineup. I went -1 uptempo as I have done all year and beat very good teams

I'm surprised nobody has said anything about this yet. Playing the same defensive depth and tempo in every game is an inherent mistake. And frankly, playing uptempo against most teams is probably not in your best interest ever. Regardless of how deep your team is, I've found uptempo to hurt more often than it helps. It hurts less when you run FB in terms of efficiency, but then it gets you more on the stamina end of things.

I'm not really sure about part of this response. I could easily be wrong. As I don't have your experience. But i'm just going by what I've been taught by some good coaches.

"playing uptempo against most teams is probably not in your best interest ever"

if you run fastbreak/press or anything/press, you build your team around ATH/SPD/DEF and the kicker.... Stamina. So by running uptempo, you bury the other teams fatigue while yours isn't affected as much. I think running uptempo is the ONLY way to maximize your efforts. As running normal does not fatigue the other team as well, which is the main idea with press.

Most successful press teams I've seen, run you in to the ground by running uptempo. And press teams that run normal tend to underachieve. At least from what I've seen.

Thoughts, everyone?

That's another reason I stayed up tempo, his bench was WEAK. I also beat far superior teams by running uptempo to run them in the ground. My 3rd string guards were better than his starters. I did lack ATH, but was going for SP for FB. Next recruiting will go for ATH.

You didn't do "wrong" necessarily by getting high speed guards. That's not a "bad" idea. You had a good team. I wouldn't look at this loss as a.... what did I do wrong? I'm scratching this plan.... just continue to get better. And add to some areas where you're weak. I can't even remember your team without looking again. But I think your best big had ATH of 64. Improve on that when you can.

You just lost A game. That you probably should've won. Don't panic over it (I do it too!) It happens.

With Fla Gulf Coast, terps has built his team the way you’d want for FB/FCP (65 speed and 80 stamina are adequate in D2 for this system, 62 BH is fairly elite) and it was not a mistake to go uptempo against Bryant. Honestly, if I was coaching FGC, I might have gone -1 against post heavy Bryant that shoots with less than 30% success from the outside, and I usually run a +2 default in FB/FCP. What is out of place is the fouls FGC incurred. Bryant is far slower and younger at guard, yet this is where most of the Florida Gulf Coast fouls take place, not post players where Bryant had an edge. No way you can prepare for that, but foul trouble is the worse thing that can happen to you in this system. A lot had to go wrong for FGC to lose and it was still close. It sucks, but just chalk it up to karma in the bank that you’ll win a big game, deep in the NT, in the future you really shouldn’t win. No question, FGC got a rotten sim, which inevitably happens and is part of the challenge.