Republican positions on immigration, social (again save abortion), and foreign issues are very anti-Christlike. Also I could make a list of about 50-100 things Trump has done that are morally repugnant, not to mention breaking commandments 7-10.

Look, Republican voters are not evil. I can completely understand voting for Trump, and I am by no means a Hillary crony. With that said, you are shitting yourself if you voted for Trump 'as a Christian' for 'Christian values'. The ONLY argument that can be made is on the abortion front. Even then it is a little shady.

Posted by tangplay on 8/18/2018 6:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Vitamin_C on 8/18/2018 5:42:00 PM (view original):
No. I am sacrificing nothing and ensuring that the SCOTUS doesn't get too far out of hand as it was heading that way. I made that pretty clear.

Nice try. That angle has been played ad nauseum. Hillary is repulsive to Christians as well.

If we are only to vote when a pious person runs we would never vote.

I doubt any person hates Christians because of Trump who didn't already espouse hatred towards us. It is so predictable.

So you think Trump is less or equally morally compromised to HRC? That is ridiculous. HRC isn't a great person, but not repulsive save the abortion argument. If you vote for Trump, you are NOT voting as a Christian.

BTW, I am a Christian as well.

Here's a lengthy post I made during the months leading up to the election. IF you take the few minutes it will take to read it you will see that voting for Trump WAS voting as a Christian.

Who do we vote for? Actually that is the wrong question to ask.

Huh? How can that be the wrong question? Well, we don’t vote for a person. We, as Christians need to be voting Proverbs 14:34:

Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.

This is NOT about personalities or personal character.

Don’t believe me? Let’s again take to the scriptures for evidence that this is indeed the case.

How about David? Would he be worthy of your vote?

How about Hezekiah? Would you consider him a good candidate worth voting for? Here’s what the Bible says about him in 2 Kings 18:3-6

3 And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that David his father did.
4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.
5 He trusted in the LORD God of Israel; so that after him was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor any that were before him.
6 For he clave to the LORD, and departed not from following him, but kept his commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses.

If that isn’t an endorsement from God, I don’t know what is. However, only a few verses later Israel was captured by the Assyrians. Why did God allow that to happen? Let’s look at verse 12 for the answer:

Because they obeyed not the voice of the LORD their God, but transgressed his covenant, and all that Moses the servant of the LORD commanded, and would not hear them, nor do them.

How about Nebuchadnezzar? Cyrus? Darius? These men certainly were NOT men of God were they? Yet if you look in your Bible you will see that all 3 did really good things for the people of God.

How is that? It is simply because what matters is not the individual character of the leader, but rather if we are looking to vote Proverbs 14:34 from above, we need to vote for righteousness.

How do we do that? Let’s look at Isaiah 1. If you are familiar with this chapter you know that Israel was far away from God, but God makes a promise to Isaiah that He will bring His people back to Himself. How did He accomplish this? Look at verse 26:

And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city.

Notice the sequence here. If you get the right kind of judges, and the right kind of lawyers THEN you shall be called the city of righteousness. It is very noteworthy that here we see God Himself tying the “righteousness of a nation” to the type of judges of that nation. Why?

Because all of the cultural issues of our day, and even our yesterday, are being decided from the courthouse. Roe v. Wade; lack of 1st amendment conscience protection; can’t acknowledge God in valedictorian speeches; etc, etc. These fights are ALL taking place in our court system and being decided by our JUDGES. So if your aim is to vote Proverbs 14:34, it starts with the judges we appoint.

What else are we to consider when we vote? Let’s look at Genesis 12. God establishes a covenant with Abram. What does he tell Abram in verse 3:

And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

This is one of the earliest covenants found in the Bible. What does God say about His covenants? Psalms 105:8-10 reads:

He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.

9 Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;
10 And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:

This makes it clear that He CANNOT break His covenants. So to this very day, whichever nations bless Israel are blessed by God and whoever curses Israel will be cursed by God.

Look at the difference in policies between the two candidates with regard to Israel. Also look at the policy differences concerning the enemies of Israel. If a nation is a blatant enemy of Israel and our policies are helping THAT nation, on which side of the “blessing/cursing” do you think we fall?

When God made that covenant with Abram He specifically said “I will make thee a great nation”. When He delivered His people out of Egypt He gave them a set of laws (some 613 laws) and He established a nation. Even with all of those laws, He called Moses and gave him a “Top Ten” if you will. These 10 Commandments are the MOST important of all of His laws. In Exodus 34:27 God puts it this way:

And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.

What that means is that no matter the issue, it can be addressed and an answer found by applying the tenor of these commandments to any issue at hand.

3 of these 10 are on the ballot Tuesday.

I am the LORD thy God.
Thou shalt not kill.
Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Religious freedom and the right to publicly acknowledge God as well as being able to live according to your conscience is all covered under that 1st commandment.

Abortion and lawlessness is certainly covered under that 5th commandment.

LGBT issues like forcing our daughters, wives, sisters and mothers to accept men in their changing rooms and rest rooms. These are issues that go against God’s design and are therefore applicable to the 6th commandment.

If we fail to act and embrace our responsibility, soon your religious liberty will be confined to the 4 walls of your place of worship. Pay attention to the terminology being tossed around out there. It is no longer “freedom of religion”, but rather “freedom of worship”. That is a TACTICAL move. They want the public to get used to that term so they can purport to “stand for freedom of worship” while they slowly and systematically strip us of our religious freedom and freedom of conscience outside of the church walls.

So who are you going to vote for? Again, you aren’t voting for a person, you are voting on the issues, and these should be the top 5 issues you consider when making your decision.

Judge appointees
Our policies toward Israel
The erosion of religious freedom
Abortion and lawlessness
LGBT agenda and policies

Posted by tangplay on 8/18/2018 6:10:00 PM (view original):
Republican positions on immigration, social (again save abortion), and foreign issues are very anti-Christlike. Also I could make a list of about 50-100 things Trump has done that are morally repugnant, not to mention breaking commandments 7-10.

What position on immigration? That people need to come to this country legally? What foreign issues? Like moving the embassy to Jerusalem? Denouncing Turkey for holding an American religious person hostage? Everyone breaks commandments. How many have you broken? Stop being such a zealot.

Posted by tangplay on 8/18/2018 6:12:00 PM (view original):
Look, Republican voters are not evil. I can completely understand voting for Trump, and I am by no means a Hillary crony. With that said, you are shitting yourself if you voted for Trump 'as a Christian' for 'Christian values'. The ONLY argument that can be made is on the abortion front. Even then it is a little shady.

He said he was going to appoint pro life justices? I am not religious, I don't care but your POV is insanity. The Left were running on pure Socialism.

You do realize that the Scandinavian countries are all capitalist with social programs, right? Even the Gov't controlled business are required to make a profit. You admitted you were OK with having the Gov't run some of our industries (nationalizing them). That is insanity.

Posted by Vitamin_C on 8/18/2018 6:20:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 8/18/2018 6:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Vitamin_C on 8/18/2018 5:42:00 PM (view original):
No. I am sacrificing nothing and ensuring that the SCOTUS doesn't get too far out of hand as it was heading that way. I made that pretty clear.

Nice try. That angle has been played ad nauseum. Hillary is repulsive to Christians as well.

If we are only to vote when a pious person runs we would never vote.

I doubt any person hates Christians because of Trump who didn't already espouse hatred towards us. It is so predictable.

So you think Trump is less or equally morally compromised to HRC? That is ridiculous. HRC isn't a great person, but not repulsive save the abortion argument. If you vote for Trump, you are NOT voting as a Christian.

BTW, I am a Christian as well.

Here's a lengthy post I made during the months leading up to the election. IF you take the few minutes it will take to read it you will see that voting for Trump WAS voting as a Christian.

Who do we vote for? Actually that is the wrong question to ask.

Huh? How can that be the wrong question? Well, we don’t vote for a person. We, as Christians need to be voting Proverbs 14:34:

Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.

This is NOT about personalities or personal character.

Don’t believe me? Let’s again take to the scriptures for evidence that this is indeed the case.

How about David? Would he be worthy of your vote?

How about Hezekiah? Would you consider him a good candidate worth voting for? Here’s what the Bible says about him in 2 Kings 18:3-6

3 And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that David his father did.
4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.
5 He trusted in the LORD God of Israel; so that after him was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor any that were before him.
6 For he clave to the LORD, and departed not from following him, but kept his commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses.

If that isn’t an endorsement from God, I don’t know what is. However, only a few verses later Israel was captured by the Assyrians. Why did God allow that to happen? Let’s look at verse 12 for the answer:

Because they obeyed not the voice of the LORD their God, but transgressed his covenant, and all that Moses the servant of the LORD commanded, and would not hear them, nor do them.

How about Nebuchadnezzar? Cyrus? Darius? These men certainly were NOT men of God were they? Yet if you look in your Bible you will see that all 3 did really good things for the people of God.

How is that? It is simply because what matters is not the individual character of the leader, but rather if we are looking to vote Proverbs 14:34 from above, we need to vote for righteousness.

How do we do that? Let’s look at Isaiah 1. If you are familiar with this chapter you know that Israel was far away from God, but God makes a promise to Isaiah that He will bring His people back to Himself. How did He accomplish this? Look at verse 26:

And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city.

Notice the sequence here. If you get the right kind of judges, and the right kind of lawyers THEN you shall be called the city of righteousness. It is very noteworthy that here we see God Himself tying the “righteousness of a nation” to the type of judges of that nation. Why?

Because all of the cultural issues of our day, and even our yesterday, are being decided from the courthouse. Roe v. Wade; lack of 1st amendment conscience protection; can’t acknowledge God in valedictorian speeches; etc, etc. These fights are ALL taking place in our court system and being decided by our JUDGES. So if your aim is to vote Proverbs 14:34, it starts with the judges we appoint.

What else are we to consider when we vote? Let’s look at Genesis 12. God establishes a covenant with Abram. What does he tell Abram in verse 3:

And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

This is one of the earliest covenants found in the Bible. What does God say about His covenants? Psalms 105:8-10 reads:

He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.

9 Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;
10 And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:

This makes it clear that He CANNOT break His covenants. So to this very day, whichever nations bless Israel are blessed by God and whoever curses Israel will be cursed by God.

Look at the difference in policies between the two candidates with regard to Israel. Also look at the policy differences concerning the enemies of Israel. If a nation is a blatant enemy of Israel and our policies are helping THAT nation, on which side of the “blessing/cursing” do you think we fall?

When God made that covenant with Abram He specifically said “I will make thee a great nation”. When He delivered His people out of Egypt He gave them a set of laws (some 613 laws) and He established a nation. Even with all of those laws, He called Moses and gave him a “Top Ten” if you will. These 10 Commandments are the MOST important of all of His laws. In Exodus 34:27 God puts it this way:

And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.

What that means is that no matter the issue, it can be addressed and an answer found by applying the tenor of these commandments to any issue at hand.

3 of these 10 are on the ballot Tuesday.

I am the LORD thy God.
Thou shalt not kill.
Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Religious freedom and the right to publicly acknowledge God as well as being able to live according to your conscience is all covered under that 1st commandment.

Abortion and lawlessness is certainly covered under that 5th commandment.

LGBT issues like forcing our daughters, wives, sisters and mothers to accept men in their changing rooms and rest rooms. These are issues that go against God’s design and are therefore applicable to the 6th commandment.

If we fail to act and embrace our responsibility, soon your religious liberty will be confined to the 4 walls of your place of worship. Pay attention to the terminology being tossed around out there. It is no longer “freedom of religion”, but rather “freedom of worship”. That is a TACTICAL move. They want the public to get used to that term so they can purport to “stand for freedom of worship” while they slowly and systematically strip us of our religious freedom and freedom of conscience outside of the church walls.

So who are you going to vote for? Again, you aren’t voting for a person, you are voting on the issues, and these should be the top 5 issues you consider when making your decision.

Judge appointees
Our policies toward Israel
The erosion of religious freedom
Abortion and lawlessness
LGBT agenda and policies

OK I have read your post, and a lot of very valid arguments were made. So let's agree with your frame here. Let's say character does not matter and we vote on issues. I am perfectly fine with that.

Now, some things I disagree with.

On the Israel argument, you are getting into a very us/them mindset with this argument. I note that none of the passages you cited come from the new testament, and this is because Jesus kinda contradicts what you are arguing here. Do I need to bring up the good Samaritan story? Do I need to bring up Matthew 5:23 and Luke 6:27? I know that you reference Iran here, but an argument that CCCP makes a lot relating to this is that we need war to settle the Israeli/Palestine dispute and you are either on one side or the other. Again this is very us/them. I come from a sect of the Church that is very pacifist and I could talk about this all day but I won't. Either way, I don't see how trying to stop the production of nuclear missiles is anti God.

You also bring up the religious freedom argument, as if the poor Christians are being trampled and soon we will be banned from public showings of faith. This is straight up bullshit. Freedom of religion doesn't mean to force people to say a prayer in school. In fact, this was a common thing Jesus criticized the leaders of the church for. Outward showing of faith but no actual meaning behind it, and outright hypocrisy. Republicans are the same way. Being a Christian isn't hard. You aren't killed at the stake for being a Christian. BTW, it's funny to hear Catholics complaining about a lack of religious toleration considering their history. Want to read up on the beginning of the Mennonite Church? Ever heard of the Spanish Inquisition? The Crusades?

Next, LGBT. This should be fairly obvious, but Jesus tells us not to be a dick to people. Additionally, this is an important time to consider the failings of your own nominee. The blatant hypocrisy to criticize LGBT people for 'Not being of God's design' but NOMINATING someone who commits adultery, lies, values material possessions over God, and scams and steals from people for his own gain. I will leave you with Matthew 7:3-5 for my thoughts on that.

So that really takes out your list, doesn't it? Abortion is the only one that you have a point on, but I think the balance is far more damning on the right.

And again, I could talk all day about Republican positions on equality and on the poor.

https://bigthink.com/21st-century-spirituality/implicit-bias-is-not-racism

Bias is not Racism

Posted by cccp1014 on 8/18/2018 6:28:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 8/18/2018 6:12:00 PM (view original):
Look, Republican voters are not evil. I can completely understand voting for Trump, and I am by no means a Hillary crony. With that said, you are shitting yourself if you voted for Trump 'as a Christian' for 'Christian values'. The ONLY argument that can be made is on the abortion front. Even then it is a little shady.

He said he was going to appoint pro life justices? I am not religious, I don't care but your POV is insanity. The Left were running on pure Socialism.

You do realize that the Scandinavian countries are all capitalist with social programs, right? Even the Gov't controlled business are required to make a profit. You admitted you were OK with having the Gov't run some of our industries (nationalizing them). That is insanity.

There's a lot to break down here.

He said he was going to appoint pro life justices?

Yes he has. I also agreed that this was a valid argument. It doesn't outweigh everything else.

The Left were running on pure Socialism.

This is a great non-sequitur but either way you are wrong. The only person even close to socialist was Bernie.

You do realize that the Scandinavian countries are all capitalist with social programs, right?

This actually made me want to bang my head on a wall. Yes, I do realize this! Want to know why? BECAUSE THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF SOCIAL DEMOCRACY, WHICH IS THE IDEOLOGY I SUPPORT. I actually cannot tell if you are so dumb that you forgot about this and thought you were making a good point, or if you need to study up on more English, but this is a pretty big low for you.

You admitted you were OK with having the Gov't run some of our industries

No, I said that if you were able to prove that that was beneficial then I would support it. Because I have an open mind. It's the same thing with any other ideology. So far it has not been proven that socialism or communism is the best ideology. I believe Social Democracy is the best ideology. You can disagree.

Posted by cccp1014 on 8/18/2018 7:51:00 PM (view original):
https://bigthink.com/21st-century-spirituality/implicit-bias-is-not-racism

Bias is not Racism

Cool. Your point is?

Posted by tangplay on 8/18/2018 7:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 8/18/2018 7:51:00 PM (view original):
https://bigthink.com/21st-century-spirituality/implicit-bias-is-not-racism

Bias is not Racism

Cool. Your point is?

There is no Institutional Racism. There is BIAS.

By your own and bad luck's definitions. If subconscious then its bias not racism.

Thanks for playing.

BL and I have been saying that bias leads to disadvantage which is institutional racism. You just agreed with us. Lol. Anyway please take that to the other thread.

Quote post by tangplay on 8/18/2018 7:47:00 PM:

On the Israel argument, you are getting into a very us/them mindset with this argument. I note that none of the passages you cited come from the new testament, and this is because Jesus kinda contradicts what you are arguing here. Do I need to bring up the good Samaritan story? Do I need to bring up Matthew 5:23 and Luke 6:27? I know that you reference Iran here, but an argument that CCCP makes a lot relating to this is that we need war to settle the Israeli/Palestine dispute and you are either on one side or the other. Again this is very us/them. I come from a sect of the Church that is very pacifist and I could talk about this all day but I won't. Either way, I don't see how trying to stop the production of nuclear missiles is anti God.

I understand there is a difference of opinion from different denominations about Israel's role during this age of grace. I won't debate this portion, but disagree with your assessment of scripture you've quoted. I don't see anything contradictory about anything Jesus said in any of those scriptures. Israel is, in fact, trying to help the people of Iran. It is the REGIME in Iran that is the problem. As far as "needing war to settle... ". They are at constant war. They have constantly been under attack and consistently thwart the attacks, give concessions, show mercy, rinse and repeat for the last 70 years.

Quote post by tangplay on 8/18/2018 7:47:00 PM:

You also bring up the religious freedom argument, as if the poor Christians are being trampled and soon we will be banned from public showings of faith. This is straight up bullshit. Freedom of religion doesn't mean to force people to say a prayer in school. In fact, this was a common thing Jesus criticized the leaders of the church for. Outward showing of faith but no actual meaning behind it, and outright hypocrisy. Republicans are the same way. Being a Christian isn't hard. You aren't killed at the stake for being a Christian. BTW, it's funny to hear Catholics complaining about a lack of religious toleration considering their history. Want to read up on the beginning of the Mennonite Church? Ever heard of the Spanish Inquisition? The Crusades?

Not everyone who displays faith publically is a hypocrite. Jesus was pointing out the individual's hypocrisy.

You are arguing against points I never mentioned.
A student being told he may not mention his faith during his valedictorian speech is being denied his freedom of religion. Period.

I also never said anyone was killed for being a Christian. Again you're arguing something I never said.

The Crusades were a response to years of Muslim aggression. And your asking me to read up on history? Fact. Muslim aggression prior to the Crusades killed more folks. If it weren't for the Crusades all of Europe would currently be Muslim.

Not that any of that has anything whatsoever to do with the point I made. That there was a very definite eroding away of religious fredom, unless you agree that "freedom of worship" is quite enough, and "freedom of religion" (as mentioned in the Constitution) is unnecessary.

Quote post by tangplay on 8/18/2018 7:47:00 PM:

Next, LGBT. This should be fairly obvious, but Jesus tells us not to be a dick to people. Additionally, this is an important time to consider the failings of your own nominee. The blatant hypocrisy to criticize LGBT people for 'Not being of God's design' but NOMINATING someone who commits adultery, lies, values material possessions over God, and scams and steals from people for his own gain. I will leave you with Matthew 7:3-5 for my thoughts on that.

I didn't nominate Trump. I was given a choice between HRC and Trump. I am not judging LBGT, when I say "goes against God's design". I am specifically referring to the bathroom and changing room issue, so the speck vs log isn't applicable. Do you believe that scripture instructs us to not speak out against bad policy or is strictly referring to one person judging another?

I'll give you this, you are great at dismantling arguments that were never made and then declaring you've taken out the list.