Posted by shoe3 on 12/8/2018 2:49:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 12/7/2018 10:47:00 PM (view original):
I think shoe would agree with what you two have posted. But I also think he is speaking on a level of what i discussed (and he's adding unneeded confusion by doing so)

"i think" what shoe is saying, is if a D2 has 15 visits and is listed at moderate, and a D1 has 14 visits and is listed at high, he is presenting it as "15 is more than 14 as far as the effort".

When really 14 visits from a D1 is worth way more than 15 visits from a D2. Which is more along the lines of what you guys are saying.

Does that help? Or are we all just chasing our tails?

No, dahsdebater and TJ are mistaken. We aren’t saying the same thing, and this mistake is important, because when people misunderstand this, they can get burned.

If a D1 school is “high” and the D2 school (red lighted) is “moderate” in the first session, and no other school is at VH, the D2 team is ahead in effort credit. If things stay exactly where they are, and the recruit is a late signee, the D2 will be VH and the D1 school will stay at high after the first cycle of RS2. However, they will still lose the recruit if it’s an early session signee, because they are red lighted. That’s what the red light does, that’s why it’s there.

uhm no?

The red light DII vs D1 only applies to the 1st signing session. Once period 2 opens up a high D2 team can take the recruit from the DI team. Cant tell if that's what you meant or not.

Ok, I guess the only thing that i was misunderstanding was..... If a D1 is only at high, then that means that the D2 is at very high (but capped for the moment).
I did not know that to be true. I assumed that was the case at times its happened with me. But i didnt know that meant it was a sure thing.

On my end, I understand now what is being said regarding this.

I didn't think that was true top.

Posted by mullycj on 12/8/2018 3:10:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 12/8/2018 2:49:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 12/7/2018 10:47:00 PM (view original):
I think shoe would agree with what you two have posted. But I also think he is speaking on a level of what i discussed (and he's adding unneeded confusion by doing so)

"i think" what shoe is saying, is if a D2 has 15 visits and is listed at moderate, and a D1 has 14 visits and is listed at high, he is presenting it as "15 is more than 14 as far as the effort".

When really 14 visits from a D1 is worth way more than 15 visits from a D2. Which is more along the lines of what you guys are saying.

Does that help? Or are we all just chasing our tails?

No, dahsdebater and TJ are mistaken. We aren’t saying the same thing, and this mistake is important, because when people misunderstand this, they can get burned.

If a D1 school is “high” and the D2 school (red lighted) is “moderate” in the first session, and no other school is at VH, the D2 team is ahead in effort credit. If things stay exactly where they are, and the recruit is a late signee, the D2 will be VH and the D1 school will stay at high after the first cycle of RS2. However, they will still lose the recruit if it’s an early session signee, because they are red lighted. That’s what the red light does, that’s why it’s there.

uhm no?

The red light DII vs D1 only applies to the 1st signing session. Once period 2 opens up a high D2 team can take the recruit from the DI team. Cant tell if that's what you meant or not.

“They will still lose the recruit if it’s an early session signee”. You are right that once period 2 opens up (and the red light is removed) a D2 team can take the recruit; but if the recruit has an early preference, and the D1 just gets to high by the end of period 1, the D2 will lose the guy, despite being far ahead.

When I had a high level D2 team and was routinely fighting low and mid-major D1 teams, I saw this first hand all the time. If I had enough juice to keep the D1 at moderate through RS2, and if the D1 did not have (or did not want to spend) more visits, I would immediately jump to VH and sign the recruit in the first cycle of RS2 (without spending more AP or visits).

Interesting. I have not lived through that situation yet. As a DII newbie I don't plan on battling DI schools.

Frankly, I think D-2 recruiting sucks, but others enjoy it. Different strokes for different folks.

I just didn't know it was "certain" that the D2 was very high in this case. I assumed the D2 could be at high along with the D1. But apparently that may not be the case.

Maybe this below is an easier way for folks to think about it. I don’t know. Maybe not. It isn’t a simple concept, and I think a lot of folks assume this game is much more simple than it really is.

1. Every player has an effort credit threshold, which teams need to cross for him to possibly sign with them. It’s not exactly the same as the threshold for considering a scholarship, but once a scholarship has been offered by a team, a team will be in this range.
2. At this point, there will be an eligible “team in the lead”.
3. This team will show up as “Very High” in the considering list, *unless* they are red lighted because the player is in a higher division pool. In that case, it doesn’t mean that team is not currently in the lead, it just means that team is currently red lighted.
4. Once there is an eligible team in the lead (remember, red lighted teams are eligible, just not yet; if everyone stops effort at that point, the recruit can sign with that team eventually, given enough time), all other teams show up in the considering list relative to that team in the lead.
5. A team can’t be listed as “high” while “in the lead” in terms of actual effort credit. If it’s actually “in the lead”, it will be “Very High” (see #3); unless it is red lighted, in which case it will be “moderate”. So a D1 team that appears “in the lead” but is only listed as “high” means there is a red lighted team that is actually “in the lead” at moderate.

I know folks, including you, doggg, think I split hairs over semantics. But this is important to grasp for coaches on either side of the low-D1/high-D2 battles, where those teams are often bumping up against each other for the same players. If you are that D1 team going into RS2 thinking you are “ahead” because you’re the only team listed as “high” on a late preference player, you are going to be disappointed when a D2 team leapfrogs you (without expending any more effort) after the first signing cycle of RS2. And as I’ve said previously, D2 teams can get burned if they underestimate how easy it is for a D1 coach to steal an early session signee from them by just sneaking into signing range before the end of the session.

There's nothing "easier" about a 5 paragraph description from shoe!.... kidding.

so is there no such thing as a "high vs high" battle in this game? I thought there was a scenario where that happens. But by your description, that's not possible

Posted by topdogggbm on 12/9/2018 10:25:00 AM (view original):
There's nothing "easier" about a 5 paragraph description from shoe!.... kidding.

so is there no such thing as a "high vs high" battle in this game? I thought there was a scenario where that happens. But by your description, that's not possible

Sure, if 2 D1 teams have reached the high threshold, but the effort credit leader is red lighted at moderate.

Fascinating. I had assumed it worked the way that TJ and dashdebater indicated. This would explain what I thought was a very odd recruiting battle I had with a DII as a DI a few seasons back. As well as why I thought the prestige gap between DI and DII was a lot more than it is when I was at DII, because I used to think that whenever a DI went H vs. my M that they had surpassed me in effort...
How weird.

Posted by shoe3 on 12/9/2018 9:54:00 AM (view original):
Maybe this below is an easier way for folks to think about it. I don’t know. Maybe not. It isn’t a simple concept, and I think a lot of folks assume this game is much more simple than it really is.

1. Every player has an effort credit threshold, which teams need to cross for him to possibly sign with them. It’s not exactly the same as the threshold for considering a scholarship, but once a scholarship has been offered by a team, a team will be in this range.
2. At this point, there will be an eligible “team in the lead”.
3. This team will show up as “Very High” in the considering list, *unless* they are red lighted because the player is in a higher division pool. In that case, it doesn’t mean that team is not currently in the lead, it just means that team is currently red lighted.
4. Once there is an eligible team in the lead (remember, red lighted teams are eligible, just not yet; if everyone stops effort at that point, the recruit can sign with that team eventually, given enough time), all other teams show up in the considering list relative to that team in the lead.
5. A team can’t be listed as “high” while “in the lead” in terms of actual effort credit. If it’s actually “in the lead”, it will be “Very High” (see #3); unless it is red lighted, in which case it will be “moderate”. So a D1 team that appears “in the lead” but is only listed as “high” means there is a red lighted team that is actually “in the lead” at moderate.

I know folks, including you, doggg, think I split hairs over semantics. But this is important to grasp for coaches on either side of the low-D1/high-D2 battles, where those teams are often bumping up against each other for the same players. If you are that D1 team going into RS2 thinking you are “ahead” because you’re the only team listed as “high” on a late preference player, you are going to be disappointed when a D2 team leapfrogs you (without expending any more effort) after the first signing cycle of RS2. And as I’ve said previously, D2 teams can get burned if they underestimate how easy it is for a D1 coach to steal an early session signee from them by just sneaking into signing range before the end of the session.

What is your source/evidence for this model? Because it does not fit with my experience or the info I saw from seble at all.

The times I jumped over a “high” D1 team on a late recruit, from moderate to very high with no extra effort (AP addition, promises or visits) after the first cycle of RS2 as a D2 team, once the red light was lifted. The times I snuck just past a D2 team that had obviously invested quite a lot to keep me at moderate, and signed an early session guy in RS1, moving up 1 HV at a time. It’s hard to reconcile those results with an alternate narrative of some team other than the red lighted team being “in the lead”.

And it’s certainly possible that we came out of beta with different understandings, but I do recall this was questioned and people were pretty confused about it, and seble saying the moderate team would be at very high, but the red light was keeping it at moderate on a specific battle analysis.