it is all about trump proving to his base that he is keeping out brown skin people who might have babies here and will lower the ratio of pure bred anglo saxons.
thats higher on his agenda then professional drug cartels bringing product only.

so, nobody has really addressed my main point when I started this thread. Of course the Trump supporters rush to blame the democrats for "not compromising", bu my point was this.
Trump promised to build a wall.
He promised Mexico would pay for said wall.
Now that he can't get Mexico to pay, thousands of Americans are suffering because he wants us to pay.

Can't quibble with that logic Wylie. That's exactly correct. He's holding America hostage because enough Americans don't want to pay for the wall and their Representatives (Congress) has made that clear to him thru the leadership. (Polosi, etal)

It's not (most of) us that doesn't get your point. You must look elsewhere and eastwards.............

You had your question answered, you just didn't like the answer. Very typical of Trump-haters. No one person, or even one Party is to blame for the mess that is the current American Government, and nobody who didn't get paid for two weeks is "suffering". If they are out of money, it is because they either live over their heads, budget poorly or not at all, or both. If you want to see suffering, there are plenty of places on this Planet you can go, but the USA is NOT one of them.

Posted by wylie715 on 1/14/2019 3:19:00 PM (view original):
so, nobody has really addressed my main point when I started this thread. Of course the Trump supporters rush to blame the democrats for "not compromising", bu my point was this.
Trump promised to build a wall.
He promised Mexico would pay for said wall.
Now that he can't get Mexico to pay, thousands of Americans are suffering because he wants us to pay.

WRONG AGAIN!

We were promised that wall back in 2006 and we were willing and expecting to pay for it.

No6thing has changed except Mexico is paying for the wall because of the money we are making on a new and better trade deal.

It hasn't even taken effect yet.

it hasnt been ratified by anyone.

i do not believe in equivalency of the 2 parties...never have..equivalency is especially false in last 2 years.
unless you are a republican in the era of trump.

one of the underlying issues going on is the refusal among ideologues of a safe democracy to submit to a president acting out of self interest and not for the sake of the country......thats why some of the more legitimate republicans are breaking away.

anyone remember the readout when trump called the president of mexico...it may have been his first call......trump begged the president to make a payment for the wall or he would be humiliated before his base.....true.

Posted by laramiebob on 1/14/2019 11:54:00 AM (view original):
I'm gonna try and leave any vitriol and rhetoric OUT of this post and stick to some basic facts in an attempt to actually spur some enlightened debate on this rather divisive subject.

I live in Arizona. A border state. We have some wall/barriers. They are fine as they are. They exist in populated areas of cities primarily. Like Nogales.
Nogales is just south of Tucson on I -19. It is (along with San Luis/Yuma) pretty much the largest border crossing area in the State. Has been for years.
I've crossed there myself. In my car. With my wife and family. We have (in AZ) several other border "crossings" some very very rural (Sasabe) and some in between like Lukeville which is the crossing for the Phoenix folks to go to Rocky Point, a favorite party destination pretty much all year for some Arizonans.

We KNOW about borders and walls/barriers/fences. There is a lot of miles of fencing!
No one (mostly) objects to the way things are now. It works. Mexico is Arizona's largest trading partner.
There is NO pending crisis on OUR borders in AZ!
That's all simple fact.

Now, here's the rub. Some more facts about our wall straight out of our daily newspapers.

Within the last 2 weeks, 3 differing and fairly elaborate TUNNELS were discovered "under the wall" between Nogales AZ. and Nogales, Sonora.
That's fact. It's ALSO a fact, that whomever is motivated to attempt to smuggle contraband INTO AZ can just drive 15 miles (either) east OR west and be completely out in the desert wilderness with NO one in sight. And just WALK across the border with their contraband.
Now I ain't saying they will make it alive and well and un-accosted but they can easily do so at little to no cost. Just the cost of the travel to the nowhere spot along the border to step across the fence.

Why do you think these cartels (whoever!) go to all the trouble and expense to build/dig these smuggling tunnels?
Fact is, they do!

There are several reasons. One is the desert is pretty damn formidable to cross on foot. It's dangerous.
Reason two is, they're LIKELY to be arrested because we citizens employ Border Patrol agents who do just that-----Patrol!
They use technology of all kinds. Infra-red. All sorts of things. The result is that it is easier and much more effective to dig their tunnels. Punch their holes. Climb over where they can. The wall is EASIER to subvert than the desert just west (and some to the East) of Nogales.
That's the real Facts! That's the actual effectiveness of a wall. It's the smuggler's (easy) target to penetrate. It doesn't send an alarm, it doesn't radio BP agents of attempts to penetrate it, it can't even stop and arrest someone trying to get in. In the desert terrain it's nearly useless.

And where we already have it?? Well, it stops the lazy, the un-motivated, the small timers!! For the REAL smugglers, the REAL criminals, the Wall is the weak link!! That's all fact.

And it's why (in any borderland region) the vast majority of our citizenry KNOW the wall's effectiveness and doesn't want to fund more walls.
WE want to buy them more night vision goggles. More (and quicker) transportation to any penetration, MORE technology.

This present impasse resulting in our Gov't's shutdown is irresponsible. It's one man trying to keep an unwise campaign pledge to the most uninformed portion of his voting populace, rather than speaking up and explaining to them that we ALREADY have most of the barriers we need. No wall is necessary, more technology is.

And as a separate point, I will point out the obvious. We NEED an actual serious congressional look at our border policies and immigration LAWS!
They are f'd up! I'm for congress suspending ALL immigration (save for national security NEEDS) until we have a more sense-able and ENFORCEABLE immigration law. That includes a strong re-examination of our asylum law/policy. Asylum should be ONLY for people in REAL danger of harm.

Stop the nonsense!
End this wall shutdown!

I completely agree with everything here except suspending immigration. We can use funds to dramatically improve the court system. Closed borders is not what this country has ever, nor should ever, have. There are ways to funnel funding to immediately improve the court system and expedite hearings for asylum seekers and for those who are caught here illegally.

Posted by wylie715 on 1/14/2019 3:19:00 PM (view original):
so, nobody has really addressed my main point when I started this thread. Of course the Trump supporters rush to blame the democrats for "not compromising", bu my point was this.
Trump promised to build a wall.
He promised Mexico would pay for said wall.
Now that he can't get Mexico to pay, thousands of Americans are suffering because he wants us to pay.

Completely correct. This is Trump's vanity. Nothing more. Nothing less. No one deserves blame but him. His proposed "emergency" is a complete farce. A majority of Americans don't want "border security" handled like this. They want to see common sense. Trump has none. And guys like allmouth saying Dems are equally to blame are just factually wrong. This is happening because of ONE man. That is an indisputable and undeniable FACT whether they believe it or not.

Posted by DougOut on 1/14/2019 3:55:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 1/14/2019 3:19:00 PM (view original):
so, nobody has really addressed my main point when I started this thread. Of course the Trump supporters rush to blame the democrats for "not compromising", bu my point was this.
Trump promised to build a wall.
He promised Mexico would pay for said wall.
Now that he can't get Mexico to pay, thousands of Americans are suffering because he wants us to pay.

WRONG AGAIN!

We were promised that wall back in 2006 and we were willing and expecting to pay for it.

No6thing has changed except Mexico is paying for the wall because of the money we are making on a new and better trade deal.

LOL who is “we?” The trade deal doesn’t fund the government. Even if we say it is significantly different from NAFTA (it isn’t), that isn’t money that’s available to fund public projects.

Posted by bad_luck on 1/14/2019 5:00:00 PM (view original):

Posted by DougOut on 1/14/2019 3:55:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 1/14/2019 3:19:00 PM (view original):
so, nobody has really addressed my main point when I started this thread. Of course the Trump supporters rush to blame the democrats for "not compromising", bu my point was this.
Trump promised to build a wall.
He promised Mexico would pay for said wall.
Now that he can't get Mexico to pay, thousands of Americans are suffering because he wants us to pay.

WRONG AGAIN!

We were promised that wall back in 2006 and we were willing and expecting to pay for it.

No6thing has changed except Mexico is paying for the wall because of the money we are making on a new and better trade deal.

LOL who is “we?” The trade deal destiny fund the government. Even if we say it is significantly different from NAFTA (it isn’t), that isn’t money that’s available to fund public projects.

First post I've seen from that assclown in a while...

I see he's still outta his trumpanzee mind...

Blocking is fun...

When it's dummy.

Posted by laramiebob on 1/14/2019 11:54:00 AM (view original):
I'm gonna try and leave any vitriol and rhetoric OUT of this post and stick to some basic facts in an attempt to actually spur some enlightened debate on this rather divisive subject.

I live in Arizona. A border state. We have some wall/barriers. They are fine as they are. They exist in populated areas of cities primarily. Like Nogales.
Nogales is just south of Tucson on I -19. It is (along with San Luis/Yuma) pretty much the largest border crossing area in the State. Has been for years.
I've crossed there myself. In my car. With my wife and family. We have (in AZ) several other border "crossings" some very very rural (Sasabe) and some in between like Lukeville which is the crossing for the Phoenix folks to go to Rocky Point, a favorite party destination pretty much all year for some Arizonans.

We KNOW about borders and walls/barriers/fences. There is a lot of miles of fencing!
No one (mostly) objects to the way things are now. It works. Mexico is Arizona's largest trading partner.
There is NO pending crisis on OUR borders in AZ!
That's all simple fact.

Now, here's the rub. Some more facts about our wall straight out of our daily newspapers.

Within the last 2 weeks, 3 differing and fairly elaborate TUNNELS were discovered "under the wall" between Nogales AZ. and Nogales, Sonora.
That's fact. It's ALSO a fact, that whomever is motivated to attempt to smuggle contraband INTO AZ can just drive 15 miles (either) east OR west and be completely out in the desert wilderness with NO one in sight. And just WALK across the border with their contraband.
Now I ain't saying they will make it alive and well and un-accosted but they can easily do so at little to no cost. Just the cost of the travel to the nowhere spot along the border to step across the fence.

Why do you think these cartels (whoever!) go to all the trouble and expense to build/dig these smuggling tunnels?
Fact is, they do!

There are several reasons. One is the desert is pretty damn formidable to cross on foot. It's dangerous.
Reason two is, they're LIKELY to be arrested because we citizens employ Border Patrol agents who do just that-----Patrol!
They use technology of all kinds. Infra-red. All sorts of things. The result is that it is easier and much more effective to dig their tunnels. Punch their holes. Climb over where they can. The wall is EASIER to subvert than the desert just west (and some to the East) of Nogales.
That's the real Facts! That's the actual effectiveness of a wall. It's the smuggler's (easy) target to penetrate. It doesn't send an alarm, it doesn't radio BP agents of attempts to penetrate it, it can't even stop and arrest someone trying to get in. In the desert terrain it's nearly useless.

And where we already have it?? Well, it stops the lazy, the un-motivated, the small timers!! For the REAL smugglers, the REAL criminals, the Wall is the weak link!! That's all fact.

And it's why (in any borderland region) the vast majority of our citizenry KNOW the wall's effectiveness and doesn't want to fund more walls.
WE want to buy them more night vision goggles. More (and quicker) transportation to any penetration, MORE technology.

This present impasse resulting in our Gov't's shutdown is irresponsible. It's one man trying to keep an unwise campaign pledge to the most uninformed portion of his voting populace, rather than speaking up and explaining to them that we ALREADY have most of the barriers we need. No wall is necessary, more technology is.

And as a separate point, I will point out the obvious. We NEED an actual serious congressional look at our border policies and immigration LAWS!
They are f'd up! I'm for congress suspending ALL immigration (save for national security NEEDS) until we have a more sense-able and ENFORCEABLE immigration law. That includes a strong re-examination of our asylum law/policy. Asylum should be ONLY for people in REAL danger of harm.

Stop the nonsense!
End this wall shutdown!

I'd say it's probably not fair to characterize Trump supporters as uninformed. The facts are right there, being thrown in their face all day and all night long. They are just choosing to ignore facts, and just blindly repeat the rhetoric that Trump and the alt-right have been spewing.

It's really not very different from a cult. Critical thought and common sense evaluation of facts is just flat-out ignored in lieu of whatever the cult leader (in this case, Trump) is telling them to believe.

i agree...it is a cult.....thats why common sense let alone truth are attacked and slogans are repeated over and over... they get comfort from them... mantras which keep them focused on believing what he says.......fake news..enemy of the people....dont believe the fbi......make america great again....the brown skin hordes......it is all out of the hitler/stalin playbook.

"Members of "totalistic" cults—those that consider their ideology the one true path—share four key characteristics. They 1) espouse an all-encompassing belief system; 2) exhibit excessive devotion to the leader; 3) avoid criticism of the group and its leader; and 4) feel disdain for non-members. That all sounds unnervingly familiar."

https://psmag.com/news/a-sociologist-explains-the-similarities-between-cults-and-trumps-gop