Posted by wylie715 on 1/23/2019 4:06:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dino27 on 1/23/2019 3:55:00 PM (view original):
why does clemens/bonds get votes but sosa doesnt.

because Sosa did not have Hall of Famer numbers before he took steroids, Clemens and Bonds did.

if bonds / clemens only did it for 1 or maybe 2 years without breaking records i would give a pass.
the fact that sosa gets no votes shows that steroids can give an average player hall of fame numbers..
bonds and clemens did it too many seasons....with significanct consequences.

dino, you are certainly entitled to your opinion! We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one!

Posted by dino27 on 1/23/2019 4:09:00 PM (view original):
the greenies and sreroids are veryvery different...greenies make you awake like coffee...if the 60s and 70s players did not stay out late they would not have taken greenies.
steroids allow you to have super abilities you could not have without them....much different....greenies do not take you beyond your normal abilities.....it offsets the hangover or tiredness when you do not get a good night's sleep.
greenies and steroids are not equal.

I disagree. They are both performance enhancers. If you don't take greenies and are very tired, your performance will suffer. if you are tired and take greenies, you are enhancing your performance. How you got that tired has nothing to do with it. Also, steroids don't just give you super abilities. You still have to work your *** off to make the steroids have an effect. If not, than everyone who did steroids would have the kind of numbers Clemens and Bonds had.
Also, as I said before, if Clemens and Bonds had never touched a steroid, they would have numbers that should have gotten them into the HoF anyway.
I don't think I said that steroids and greenies were equal. Just that they were both performance enhancing drugs. If you are going to keep Bonds and Clemens out for using PEDs, then you should keep everyone who ever used a PED out, regardless of what PED they used.

one helps you reach your everyday normal potential.
one enhances beyond normal potential.
there is a major difference there.
greenies dont bulk you up..they wake you up.

btw..any one that wears a fez outside of a morrocan restaurant or bought a pez should also be out.
tony gwynne probably juiced one year....i give that a pass...notmassive usage.

what he said^^^ Any hall of fame that inducts Harold Baines but not Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens is useless. Nothing against Baines. He was a good player, but he was never great.

Posted by dino27 on 1/23/2019 6:10:00 PM (view original):
one helps you reach your everyday normal potential.
one enhances beyond normal potential.
there is a major difference there.
greenies dont bulk you up..they wake you up.

they both enhance performance. Can you disagree with that? And steroids do not enhance beyond normal potential for everyone. Lots of players who did steroids continued to be mediocre (at best...talking to you, Marvin Benard). Is it coincidence that Bonds and Clemens were also two of the hardest workers in baseball as far as getting and staying in shape?

Actually, Bonds admitted to using steroid ointments from Conte (the Cream and the Clear). He just said he didn’t realize what they were.

Posted by wylie715 on 1/23/2019 7:16:00 PM (view original):
what he said^^^ Any hall of fame that inducts Harold Baines but not Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens is useless. Nothing against Baines. He was a good player, but he was never great.

it's the way Baines got in that makes it such a joke. he was on the ballot for five years and never got more than 6% of the vote, with many of those years before the ballot got overcrowded with all the steroid guys and almost no writers were using all ten of their votes. then he fell below 5% in his fifth year and was gone.

that should have been it, but apparently if the owner of one of the teams you played on does enough politicking on your behalf, you can get in despite miserably failing by the established process. the veterans committee makes no sense when evaluating modern players anyway, in a pre-TV era there was some merit to it, but everyone voting now watched a ton of Harold Baines games and has access to video of him playing. no new information came to light since he failed to even get 5%.

just openly farcical

Posted by Jtpsops on 1/23/2019 7:24:00 PM (view original):
Actually, Bonds admitted to using steroid ointments from Conte (the Cream and the Clear). He just said he didn’t realize what they were.

EXACTLY...that is correct.....a stupid jury said there was reasonable doubtas to whether or not bonds knew what he was dping.....( intent )
personally i cannot understand the defense of lack of proof.
at lleast wylie does not deny the usage...he feels it is hypocritical to condone greenies but not steroids.
i believe the extent of results is extremely different.

the baines case and bonds / clemens are not comparable...different voting bodies..and more importantly..one is an undeserved ..the other involves major major major cheaters...who destroyed the enjoyment of the game and the integrity for millions of longtime fans.

Posted by wylie715 on 1/23/2019 7:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dino27 on 1/23/2019 6:10:00 PM (view original):
one helps you reach your everyday normal potential.
one enhances beyond normal potential.
there is a major difference there.
greenies dont bulk you up..they wake you up.

they both enhance performance. Can you disagree with that? And steroids do not enhance beyond normal potential for everyone. Lots of players who did steroids continued to be mediocre (at best...talking to you, Marvin Benard). Is it coincidence that Bonds and Clemens were also two of the hardest workers in baseball as far as getting and staying in shape?

No, but HGH does. Which is really what they guys were taking.

yes..you are right ..some kind of concoction that included hgh....
the guys that really cheated like bonds and clemens are not heroes to me.....their legit accomplishments are tarnished......they hurt baseball and i do not believe it is right to ignore that .