Posted by cccp1014 on 2/9/2019 3:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 2/9/2019 10:35:00 AM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 2/9/2019 9:04:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 2/9/2019 12:00:00 AM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/8/2019 11:27:00 PM (view original):
How? I work hard for my $10. How is it more fair for me to put in $5 and you and all3 to only contribute $1? You have no right to the money that I earned.

Here's the thing about taxes, they are a necessary evil. They are a legal form of theft. The government produces nothing. The government should take the bare minimum to function.

Every able-bodied adult has the opportunity to earn a living in America. They don't have a need for unearned handouts from the government. I know you think I am harsh for this belief. I understand why you think that. I appreciate your compassion for people. I hope you never lose that. But my view is actually a view of optimism. I believe that everyone is capable of success. I believe in personal responsibility. I think highly of people. If you are permanently poor, you mismanaged your money and your life. We shouldn't punish those who produce and have been wise. That is a terrible and immoral thing to do. Progressive tax rates punish success.

My only exception is for children. Children are unable to fend for themselves. If they draw a crappy lot and get crappy parents, that is not their fault. I believe that the initial responsibility falls on the shoulders of the community, but if the community fails them then someone has to step in. This is why I am okay with programs like WIC.

You aren't giving that money to me, we are buying something that we all benefit from. But we should pay the same proportionally, not in wealth.

If we all put in half, that's $7. If we all put in two dollars, that's $6 and all3 and I are out of money. You would still be in the better position.

I believe everyone has opportunity in America, but not everyone has equal opportunity. It's not a punishment to those who succeed, it is them paying their fair share. It's not like I am arguing to make the rich suddenly poor. The rich are still better off.

Children who draw a crappy lot should get boosted but children who draw a great lot should not have to pay taxes?

Why should everyone have equal opportunity? That’s silly. Everyone has equal rights but opportunities will never be equal.

Sure, some inequality is good. I think opportunity is too unequal.

Is it unfair that Gronk was born 6’7 with elite athleticism and charisma? Plays in the NFL, gets a ton of endorsements, dates super models, etc. Not fair tang wants that too. Equal opportunities are impossible. We are all born with certain advantages and disadvantages.

I highly doubt that Gronk was 6'7" at birth. If he was, I really feel sorry for his mom.

Posted by all3 on 2/9/2019 4:55:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 2/9/2019 4:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 2/9/2019 12:18:00 AM (view original):
Education and infrastructure are two.

Proportional paying is better than just paying the same amount.

yeah, but the public education system and the infrastructure in this ountry have been going downhill for a while. Unfortunately, that is not where most of our taxes are going.

Maybe we should make individual Politicians foot the bill when they start a witch-hunt investigation that yields absolutely nothing. That would certainly cut-down on what this Country wastes catering to Political agendas.

maybe we shouldn't spend $5 billion on an unneeded wall. Maybe we shouldn't pay senators and congresspeople so much, and continue to pay them too much after they retire. Maybe we should do something about defense spending, or at least make sure the army isn't paying $1000 for a ******* toilet. Maybe we shouldn't pay several hundred thousand dollars every time any president wants to go golfing.

Posted by tangplay on 2/9/2019 7:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/9/2019 6:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 2/9/2019 5:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/9/2019 10:44:00 AM (view original):
In what areas is opportunity unequal and how do you fix it?

You have said education in the past, but everyone gets 13 years of free schooling. If you take the last 4 of those 13 seriously, you can get at least 4 more for free at very prestigious schools.

So, since everyone has equal access to education, what other areas of opportunity are not equal?

Are you seriously arguing that opportunity is equal in America?

Schools are not equal. Some schools are better than others. In my district, there were about 6 elementary schools, but by the time we got to high school, everyone on the basketball team and almost all the starters in football were from just two schools. Those schools happened to be the ones that recieved the most funding. Schools are primarily funded by property taxes. The richer an area is, the more likely they are to have a better school.

No, not every public school is equal. You claim it's a lack of funding. I can't confirm or deny as I don't know the budgets per child in each school.

I do know that kids who come from wealthier families tend to be more focused academically than kids who come from poorer families as a general rule. This is indisputable. This is a lot of what you're seeing in the disparity between schools.

but like I said, for whatever reason some schools are better than others. This is why school choice is so vital. In GA, we had charter schools on the ballot a few years back. The left fought them vehemently. Luckily they still passed. I'm not sure why it's a bad thing to have schools for the more determined and ambitious kids. It creates a much cleaner environment for them to learn. once again, school choice is the way to solve your problem. Allow kids to go to the better schools.

We've discussed education. Where else do you think our great country is lacking equal opportunity?

Would the schools with the more determined and ambitious kids get the better teachers?

School choice is good, but some kids are going to have to go to the worst schools, right? Especially those with worse parents, the ones who need the schooling the most? Wouldn't the simpler option be to simply equalize funding for schools?

In general, housing is pretty unequal.

1. Probably. Would you rather teach a bunch of kids who really don't care to learn or kids who are driven and will stay focused. I think it's fair. They have earned the right to have better teachers by taking their academics seriously.

2. I'm going to do some research on school funding tonight or tomorrow so that I can reply with some knowledge of the situation, but i'm not sure any amount of funding would remedy bad parents. It sounds really bad, but some kids are just screwed because of who their parents are. The parents aren't bad enough for the state to justify taking them away, but aren't good enough to instill any kind of work ethic or drive for success into them. This is where people like you and I have a role. We need to take every opportunity to make a bad situation better for them. I am greatly appreciative for what you and your father do. It sets a good example for the rest of society. That is where we will see true change and improvement. The government has tried and failed. It's up to the communities.

3. Who is housing unequal for? I will assume that you are referring to blacks. Correct me if i'm wrong, but I will work off of that assumption. There are a lot of factors for this. I will list a few reasons as to why I think this is:

1. A breakdown in black culture. Roughly 75% of whites kids live with two parents. About 36% of black kids live with two parents. It is much easier to pay a mortgage with two incomes rather than one.
2. High school dropout rates are a major factor in housing inequity. If you don't have a HS diploma, it's really hard to get a good paying job. Whites graduate at an 86% rate. Blacks graduate at a 69% rate. 1/3 of all black kids don't have a HS diploma.
3. Generational wealth. I have a safety net because my family has accumulated wealth. Due to past racism in America, most blacks don't have that luxury.

Obviously there are more reasons, but I see those as the big 3 contributing factors. The remedies for this is that black leaders are going to have to step up and advocate for a change in culture. Encourage more kids to stay in school and to not have children before they get married. And the remedy for #3 is time. It sucks, but there is not much else that can be done.

Posted by wylie715 on 2/9/2019 8:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by all3 on 2/9/2019 4:55:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 2/9/2019 4:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 2/9/2019 12:18:00 AM (view original):
Education and infrastructure are two.

Proportional paying is better than just paying the same amount.

yeah, but the public education system and the infrastructure in this ountry have been going downhill for a while. Unfortunately, that is not where most of our taxes are going.

Maybe we should make individual Politicians foot the bill when they start a witch-hunt investigation that yields absolutely nothing. That would certainly cut-down on what this Country wastes catering to Political agendas.

maybe we shouldn't spend $5 billion on an unneeded wall. Maybe we shouldn't pay senators and congresspeople so much, and continue to pay them too much after they retire. Maybe we should do something about defense spending, or at least make sure the army isn't paying $1000 for a ******* toilet. Maybe we shouldn't pay several hundred thousand dollars every time any president wants to go golfing.

Stop being rational, Wylie. There is no room for that here.

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/9/2019 7:46:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 2/9/2019 5:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 2/9/2019 4:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 2/9/2019 12:18:00 AM (view original):
Education and infrastructure are two.

Proportional paying is better than just paying the same amount.

yeah, but the public education system and the infrastructure in this ountry have been going downhill for a while. Unfortunately, that is not where most of our taxes are going.

Well, yeah, but those are still valid arguments.

If it suits you, a lot of taxpayer money goes to the military.

Interesting question:
Should you be able to conscientiously object to your tax money going to the military?

For sure. You can consciencely object to your tax dollars going to anything. It would be pointless as the majority of the country realize the necessity of a military, but you can object to whatever you want.

of course it is necessary to have a military, but I question whether it is necessary to spend that much on it.. Also, I could be wrong, but I think tan was asking if it is legal to object to takes going to the military by not paying said taxes. I don 't think anyone likes paying taxes, regardless of what they pay for.

Going on what Wylie said, this is why it blows my mind that people want to give the government more and more power and money. They already mismanage what they do have. Are they going to magically stop sucking if we give them more? I would wager not.

By the way, Wylie, the wall is more like $60B or something like that. The $5B is just to get started with more.

Posted by wylie715 on 2/9/2019 8:35:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/9/2019 7:46:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 2/9/2019 5:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 2/9/2019 4:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 2/9/2019 12:18:00 AM (view original):
Education and infrastructure are two.

Proportional paying is better than just paying the same amount.

yeah, but the public education system and the infrastructure in this ountry have been going downhill for a while. Unfortunately, that is not where most of our taxes are going.

Well, yeah, but those are still valid arguments.

If it suits you, a lot of taxpayer money goes to the military.

Interesting question:
Should you be able to conscientiously object to your tax money going to the military?

For sure. You can consciencely object to your tax dollars going to anything. It would be pointless as the majority of the country realize the necessity of a military, but you can object to whatever you want.

of course it is necessary to have a military, but I question whether it is necessary to spend that much on it.. Also, I could be wrong, but I think tan was asking if it is legal to object to takes going to the military by not paying said taxes. I don 't think anyone likes paying taxes, regardless of what they pay for.

Yeah, we could definitely cut the military budget by a significant portion and still have just as strong of a military.

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/9/2019 8:45:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 2/9/2019 7:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/9/2019 6:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 2/9/2019 5:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/9/2019 10:44:00 AM (view original):
In what areas is opportunity unequal and how do you fix it?

You have said education in the past, but everyone gets 13 years of free schooling. If you take the last 4 of those 13 seriously, you can get at least 4 more for free at very prestigious schools.

So, since everyone has equal access to education, what other areas of opportunity are not equal?

Are you seriously arguing that opportunity is equal in America?

Schools are not equal. Some schools are better than others. In my district, there were about 6 elementary schools, but by the time we got to high school, everyone on the basketball team and almost all the starters in football were from just two schools. Those schools happened to be the ones that recieved the most funding. Schools are primarily funded by property taxes. The richer an area is, the more likely they are to have a better school.

No, not every public school is equal. You claim it's a lack of funding. I can't confirm or deny as I don't know the budgets per child in each school.

I do know that kids who come from wealthier families tend to be more focused academically than kids who come from poorer families as a general rule. This is indisputable. This is a lot of what you're seeing in the disparity between schools.

but like I said, for whatever reason some schools are better than others. This is why school choice is so vital. In GA, we had charter schools on the ballot a few years back. The left fought them vehemently. Luckily they still passed. I'm not sure why it's a bad thing to have schools for the more determined and ambitious kids. It creates a much cleaner environment for them to learn. once again, school choice is the way to solve your problem. Allow kids to go to the better schools.

We've discussed education. Where else do you think our great country is lacking equal opportunity?

Would the schools with the more determined and ambitious kids get the better teachers?

School choice is good, but some kids are going to have to go to the worst schools, right? Especially those with worse parents, the ones who need the schooling the most? Wouldn't the simpler option be to simply equalize funding for schools?

In general, housing is pretty unequal.

1. Probably. Would you rather teach a bunch of kids who really don't care to learn or kids who are driven and will stay focused. I think it's fair. They have earned the right to have better teachers by taking their academics seriously.

2. I'm going to do some research on school funding tonight or tomorrow so that I can reply with some knowledge of the situation, but i'm not sure any amount of funding would remedy bad parents. It sounds really bad, but some kids are just screwed because of who their parents are. The parents aren't bad enough for the state to justify taking them away, but aren't good enough to instill any kind of work ethic or drive for success into them. This is where people like you and I have a role. We need to take every opportunity to make a bad situation better for them. I am greatly appreciative for what you and your father do. It sets a good example for the rest of society. That is where we will see true change and improvement. The government has tried and failed. It's up to the communities.

3. Who is housing unequal for? I will assume that you are referring to blacks. Correct me if i'm wrong, but I will work off of that assumption. There are a lot of factors for this. I will list a few reasons as to why I think this is:

1. A breakdown in black culture. Roughly 75% of whites kids live with two parents. About 36% of black kids live with two parents. It is much easier to pay a mortgage with two incomes rather than one.
2. High school dropout rates are a major factor in housing inequity. If you don't have a HS diploma, it's really hard to get a good paying job. Whites graduate at an 86% rate. Blacks graduate at a 69% rate. 1/3 of all black kids don't have a HS diploma.
3. Generational wealth. I have a safety net because my family has accumulated wealth. Due to past racism in America, most blacks don't have that luxury.

Obviously there are more reasons, but I see those as the big 3 contributing factors. The remedies for this is that black leaders are going to have to step up and advocate for a change in culture. Encourage more kids to stay in school and to not have children before they get married. And the remedy for #3 is time. It sucks, but there is not much else that can be done.

1. So now you are arguing that poor schools get worse teachers because some poor students don't apply themselves?

2. I completely agree with this, but I do think funding does have a role, and that's why good teachers in poor communities are really important.

3. I agree with this.

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/9/2019 8:45:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 2/9/2019 7:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/9/2019 6:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 2/9/2019 5:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/9/2019 10:44:00 AM (view original):
In what areas is opportunity unequal and how do you fix it?

You have said education in the past, but everyone gets 13 years of free schooling. If you take the last 4 of those 13 seriously, you can get at least 4 more for free at very prestigious schools.

So, since everyone has equal access to education, what other areas of opportunity are not equal?

Are you seriously arguing that opportunity is equal in America?

Schools are not equal. Some schools are better than others. In my district, there were about 6 elementary schools, but by the time we got to high school, everyone on the basketball team and almost all the starters in football were from just two schools. Those schools happened to be the ones that recieved the most funding. Schools are primarily funded by property taxes. The richer an area is, the more likely they are to have a better school.

No, not every public school is equal. You claim it's a lack of funding. I can't confirm or deny as I don't know the budgets per child in each school.

I do know that kids who come from wealthier families tend to be more focused academically than kids who come from poorer families as a general rule. This is indisputable. This is a lot of what you're seeing in the disparity between schools.

but like I said, for whatever reason some schools are better than others. This is why school choice is so vital. In GA, we had charter schools on the ballot a few years back. The left fought them vehemently. Luckily they still passed. I'm not sure why it's a bad thing to have schools for the more determined and ambitious kids. It creates a much cleaner environment for them to learn. once again, school choice is the way to solve your problem. Allow kids to go to the better schools.

We've discussed education. Where else do you think our great country is lacking equal opportunity?

Would the schools with the more determined and ambitious kids get the better teachers?

School choice is good, but some kids are going to have to go to the worst schools, right? Especially those with worse parents, the ones who need the schooling the most? Wouldn't the simpler option be to simply equalize funding for schools?

In general, housing is pretty unequal.

1. Probably. Would you rather teach a bunch of kids who really don't care to learn or kids who are driven and will stay focused. I think it's fair. They have earned the right to have better teachers by taking their academics seriously.

2. I'm going to do some research on school funding tonight or tomorrow so that I can reply with some knowledge of the situation, but i'm not sure any amount of funding would remedy bad parents. It sounds really bad, but some kids are just screwed because of who their parents are. The parents aren't bad enough for the state to justify taking them away, but aren't good enough to instill any kind of work ethic or drive for success into them. This is where people like you and I have a role. We need to take every opportunity to make a bad situation better for them. I am greatly appreciative for what you and your father do. It sets a good example for the rest of society. That is where we will see true change and improvement. The government has tried and failed. It's up to the communities.

3. Who is housing unequal for? I will assume that you are referring to blacks. Correct me if i'm wrong, but I will work off of that assumption. There are a lot of factors for this. I will list a few reasons as to why I think this is:

1. A breakdown in black culture. Roughly 75% of whites kids live with two parents. About 36% of black kids live with two parents. It is much easier to pay a mortgage with two incomes rather than one.
2. High school dropout rates are a major factor in housing inequity. If you don't have a HS diploma, it's really hard to get a good paying job. Whites graduate at an 86% rate. Blacks graduate at a 69% rate. 1/3 of all black kids don't have a HS diploma.
3. Generational wealth. I have a safety net because my family has accumulated wealth. Due to past racism in America, most blacks don't have that luxury.

Obviously there are more reasons, but I see those as the big 3 contributing factors. The remedies for this is that black leaders are going to have to step up and advocate for a change in culture. Encourage more kids to stay in school and to not have children before they get married. And the remedy for #3 is time. It sucks, but there is not much else that can be done.

1. So now you are arguing that poor schools get worse teachers because some poor students don't apply themselves?

2. I completely agree with this, but I do think funding does have a role, and that's why good teachers in poor communities are really important.

3. I agree with this.

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/9/2019 8:42:00 PM (view original):
Going on what Wylie said, this is why it blows my mind that people want to give the government more and more power and money. They already mismanage what they do have. Are they going to magically stop sucking if we give them more? I would wager not.

By the way, Wylie, the wall is more like $60B or something like that. The $5B is just to get started with more.

Plus upkeep and rebuilding which would exponentially increase the cost over time. Silly.

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/9/2019 8:42:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 2/9/2019 8:35:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/9/2019 7:46:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 2/9/2019 5:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 2/9/2019 4:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 2/9/2019 12:18:00 AM (view original):
Education and infrastructure are two.

Proportional paying is better than just paying the same amount.

yeah, but the public education system and the infrastructure in this ountry have been going downhill for a while. Unfortunately, that is not where most of our taxes are going.

Well, yeah, but those are still valid arguments.

If it suits you, a lot of taxpayer money goes to the military.

Interesting question:
Should you be able to conscientiously object to your tax money going to the military?

For sure. You can consciencely object to your tax dollars going to anything. It would be pointless as the majority of the country realize the necessity of a military, but you can object to whatever you want.

of course it is necessary to have a military, but I question whether it is necessary to spend that much on it.. Also, I could be wrong, but I think tan was asking if it is legal to object to takes going to the military by not paying said taxes. I don 't think anyone likes paying taxes, regardless of what they pay for.

Yeah, we could definitely cut the military budget by a significant portion and still have just as strong of a military.

We are all in agreement here.

1. So now you are arguing that poor schools get worse teachers because some poor students don't apply themselves?

No, i'm saying that it is fair that teachers would rather teach at a charter school. Those kids have earned it. As far as normal public schools, there is no way to control where teachers go. They generally go to the schools where classes are easier to manage which tend to be more wealthy areas. It's just reality.

2. I completely agree with this, but I do think funding does have a role, and that's why good teachers in poor communities are really important.

Like i've said, I can't comment knowledgeably on funding. I will do the research, but right now i'm sure you are more knowledgeable than me. But yes, those schools do need good teachers. The question is how do you make those jobs attractive to them. I have taught at a poor school. It is hard. Getting teachers is the easy part. Keeping the teachers is the challenging part. The students run the weak teachers out pretty quickly.

3. I agree with this.

This is no fun if you agree with me. I don't have anything to argue.

All in all, I think we are on the same page as far as education. But saying that, students have to take the bulk of the responsibility for their successes or failures. The problem is, as i've said before, young people are stupid. They don't realize the importance of education until it is too late if it isn't stressed at home. I think the ultimate question, regardless of funds, is how do you impress on them the importance? The situation is improving. Graduation rates are increasing and literacy rates are improving. Maybe the only solution is to trust the process and be patient.

there is no way to control where teachers go

I have no opinion on this, but do you think that this should change? Perhaps more funding for poorer schools would incentivise more teachers to go there? Or paying teachers more to go to poorer schools? I'm just spitballing here.

students have to take the bulk of the responsibility for their successes or failures.

Sure, but as you have mentioned, a lot of student success and failure is based on situations out of their control (I.E. funding and parents). That's why teachers and a good learning environment are so important. The elementary school I went to had neither of these, and was in a bad part of town. Not many kids made it out to the real world with a high school diploma.

Money talks. I doubt more general funding to a school would be much of an incentive. I'm sure it would provide some, but I doubt it would move the needle much. More pay for sure would do this.

In GA, teachers in SW Fulton and Dekalb Counties (bad parts of Atlanta) do make more money. It hasn't seemed to make much of a difference, based on test scores. I'm not sure how you qualify progress short-term. I feel like you need 15-20 years after a group of kids finish HS to really gauge if the system worked. Also, I'm not sure how you qualify the "good" teachers. When I was teaching, it was pretty obvious who the better teachers were, but I worked with them everyday. It is not as easy to gauge a teacher's ability that you do not have a direct connection to.

Well re the "Good' teachers point, that's the school's decision.