Posted by gomiami1972 on 2/21/2019 6:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/21/2019 6:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 2/21/2019 6:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/21/2019 5:25:00 PM (view original):
@Tang. Stop living in a world of exceptions. We are generalizing here. We are using the general rule. The people who are self-made wealthy worked the hardest. The people who live in poverty their whole life have made bad choices.

This isn't the general rule though.

Some people who are wealthy and self-made worked hard.
Some people who are wealthy and self-made didn't necessarily work that hard
Some people who are poor made bad choices or are lazy.
Some people who are poor worked hard and made good choices and just had **** luck.

Please use common sense and logic. Those who work hard and made the better choices have a higher rate of success. This is an undeniable truth.

I'm probably going to drop out of this topic because I'm having a difficult time fathoming the gap between the idealistic and the stark reality.

My final comment is that many of you are making the assumption that there is a choice to be made.

People with options make choices.

When there is only one path forward you simply proceed whether you want to or not.

Exactly.

The fact that you think it's a weird standard says a lot. You have no appreciation for self-accountability. Choices come with consequences. People who are on a path towards success weigh the risk/reward of their decisions. They make calculated decisions. Not every choice works out for the positive, but you greatly increase your odds.

Posted by wylie715 on 2/21/2019 6:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 2/21/2019 6:20:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 2/21/2019 6:04:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 2/21/2019 3:56:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 2/21/2019 3:42:00 PM (view original):
BL's statement that " Anyone who thinks it's not "overly difficult" to escape poverty has never had to actually escape poverty themselves. " is just as stupid as cccp's "anyone Jew who votes democrat is a traitor". How would you know? Have you ever escaped poverty? Have you personally spoken with every person who has or hasn't escaped poverty? I'm guessing the answer to both those questions is no, so you don't really know anything about the subject.

If it was easy to escape poverty very few would be in poverty.

I never said it was easy, just that your statement is a blanket statement that does not apply to everyone. You tend to make those kind of statements a lot. Like anyone who voted for Trump is an idiot. Anyone who doesn't want Bryce Harper on their team is an idiot. Anyone who thinks it is not overly difficult to escape poverty has never had to escape poverty. You don't know why everyone voted for Trump. You don't know why teams that don't want to sign Harper feel that way. You and cccp seem to both think that because you believe something to true, everyone must believe it to be true. Obviously that is not the case, since what you believe to be true and cccp believe to be true are radically different.

I actually do know for a fact that every single person who voted for Trump is a complete idiot.

You're right about the rest though. Maybe there are people out there who have easily escaped poverty and who don't want Bryce Harper on their favorite baseball team.

That's just what I am talking about. There is no way you could know for a fact that everyone who voted for Trump is a complete idiot, because it is not a fact. You don't know every person who voted for Trump. Matter of fact, you know a very small percentage of the people who voted for Trump. Therefore you could not possibly know they are all idiots, or even that most of them are idiots. I know for a fact that some people who voted for Trump are not idiots. I know this because I know some people who voted for Trump, and had what they felt were valid reasons for voting that way, who are not complete idiots.

No, I actually do know that for a fact.

Posted by bad_luck on 2/21/2019 6:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/21/2019 6:24:00 PM (view original):
No, it's not a weird standard. If you are smart with your choices, more times than not it will be the right choice. We'll use your "buying a house" example. If I buy a house with no money in reserve I am asking for disaster. It is a bad idea. Even if it works out okay in the end, it was still a bad idea.

Or, you buy a house and the market takes a dump. You lose your job, run through your savings, and can't sell the house. Your credit is wrecked for seven years after the bank forecloses.

Yes, **** happens. Guess what. Successful people pull themselves back up. It literally happens all the time. That is the essence of my whole point. Being poor temporarily is a product of unfortunate circumstances. Being permanently poor is a product of bad choices and poor money management.

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/21/2019 6:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 2/21/2019 6:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/21/2019 6:24:00 PM (view original):
No, it's not a weird standard. If you are smart with your choices, more times than not it will be the right choice. We'll use your "buying a house" example. If I buy a house with no money in reserve I am asking for disaster. It is a bad idea. Even if it works out okay in the end, it was still a bad idea.

Or, you buy a house and the market takes a dump. You lose your job, run through your savings, and can't sell the house. Your credit is wrecked for seven years after the bank forecloses.

Yes, **** happens. Guess what. Successful people pull themselves back up. It literally happens all the time. That is the essence of my whole point. Being poor temporarily is a product of unfortunate circumstances. Being permanently poor is a product of bad choices and poor money management.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you're right about that.

What difference does it make? Does it mean we eliminate social safety nets?

Posted by bad_luck on 2/21/2019 6:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 2/21/2019 6:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 2/21/2019 6:20:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 2/21/2019 6:04:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 2/21/2019 3:56:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 2/21/2019 3:42:00 PM (view original):
BL's statement that " Anyone who thinks it's not "overly difficult" to escape poverty has never had to actually escape poverty themselves. " is just as stupid as cccp's "anyone Jew who votes democrat is a traitor". How would you know? Have you ever escaped poverty? Have you personally spoken with every person who has or hasn't escaped poverty? I'm guessing the answer to both those questions is no, so you don't really know anything about the subject.

If it was easy to escape poverty very few would be in poverty.

I never said it was easy, just that your statement is a blanket statement that does not apply to everyone. You tend to make those kind of statements a lot. Like anyone who voted for Trump is an idiot. Anyone who doesn't want Bryce Harper on their team is an idiot. Anyone who thinks it is not overly difficult to escape poverty has never had to escape poverty. You don't know why everyone voted for Trump. You don't know why teams that don't want to sign Harper feel that way. You and cccp seem to both think that because you believe something to true, everyone must believe it to be true. Obviously that is not the case, since what you believe to be true and cccp believe to be true are radically different.

I actually do know for a fact that every single person who voted for Trump is a complete idiot.

You're right about the rest though. Maybe there are people out there who have easily escaped poverty and who don't want Bryce Harper on their favorite baseball team.

That's just what I am talking about. There is no way you could know for a fact that everyone who voted for Trump is a complete idiot, because it is not a fact. You don't know every person who voted for Trump. Matter of fact, you know a very small percentage of the people who voted for Trump. Therefore you could not possibly know they are all idiots, or even that most of them are idiots. I know for a fact that some people who voted for Trump are not idiots. I know this because I know some people who voted for Trump, and had what they felt were valid reasons for voting that way, who are not complete idiots.

No, I actually do know that for a fact.

Okay. If it is a fact, than prove it. You can't.

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/21/2019 6:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 2/21/2019 6:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/21/2019 6:24:00 PM (view original):
No, it's not a weird standard. If you are smart with your choices, more times than not it will be the right choice. We'll use your "buying a house" example. If I buy a house with no money in reserve I am asking for disaster. It is a bad idea. Even if it works out okay in the end, it was still a bad idea.

Or, you buy a house and the market takes a dump. You lose your job, run through your savings, and can't sell the house. Your credit is wrecked for seven years after the bank forecloses.

Yes, **** happens. Guess what. Successful people pull themselves back up. It literally happens all the time. That is the essence of my whole point. Being poor temporarily is a product of unfortunate circumstances. Being permanently poor is a product of bad choices and poor money management.

Not always. A lot of the times, maybe even most of the time, it is a product of bad choices or bad money management, but not always.

Posted by bad_luck on 2/21/2019 6:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/21/2019 6:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 2/21/2019 6:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/21/2019 5:25:00 PM (view original):
@Tang. Stop living in a world of exceptions. We are generalizing here. We are using the general rule. The people who are self-made wealthy worked the hardest. The people who live in poverty their whole life have made bad choices.

This isn't the general rule though.

Some people who are wealthy and self-made worked hard.
Some people who are wealthy and self-made didn't necessarily work that hard
Some people who are poor made bad choices or are lazy.
Some people who are poor worked hard and made good choices and just had **** luck.

Please use common sense and logic. Those who work hard and made the better choices have a higher rate of success. This is an undeniable truth.

"Made better choices" is kind of a weird standard, right? Obviously in retrospect, some choices are better than others but that isn't always easy to see at the time. Something might seem like a good choice at the time and end up being a disaster.

That could be taking a new job, buying a house, marrying someone, having kids, investing in a business, etc. All of those choices could be stepping stones to success and a happy life. Or any one of those choices could be a time-bomb that sets you back years.

Yup, lots of stuff like health care issues, divorce, accidents happen that can derail even the best of a string of choices.

Posted by wylie715 on 2/21/2019 6:53:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/21/2019 6:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 2/21/2019 6:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/21/2019 6:24:00 PM (view original):
No, it's not a weird standard. If you are smart with your choices, more times than not it will be the right choice. We'll use your "buying a house" example. If I buy a house with no money in reserve I am asking for disaster. It is a bad idea. Even if it works out okay in the end, it was still a bad idea.

Or, you buy a house and the market takes a dump. You lose your job, run through your savings, and can't sell the house. Your credit is wrecked for seven years after the bank forecloses.

Yes, **** happens. Guess what. Successful people pull themselves back up. It literally happens all the time. That is the essence of my whole point. Being poor temporarily is a product of unfortunate circumstances. Being permanently poor is a product of bad choices and poor money management.

Not always. A lot of the times, maybe even most of the time, it is a product of bad choices or bad money management, but not always.

For sure, I am speaking in generalities. There are always exceptions to every rule. There is a conservative talk show host that I listen to frequently. He is not a Trump supporter. He stated on his show that Trump has lost suburban women. A woman called in and went nuts on him. "I am a suburban woman and I still support Trump. You don't know what the hell you're talking about." Guess what lady, you're the exception. As a rule, Trump has lost suburban women.

Posted by gomiami1972 on 2/21/2019 6:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/21/2019 6:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 2/21/2019 6:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/21/2019 5:25:00 PM (view original):
@Tang. Stop living in a world of exceptions. We are generalizing here. We are using the general rule. The people who are self-made wealthy worked the hardest. The people who live in poverty their whole life have made bad choices.

This isn't the general rule though.

Some people who are wealthy and self-made worked hard.
Some people who are wealthy and self-made didn't necessarily work that hard
Some people who are poor made bad choices or are lazy.
Some people who are poor worked hard and made good choices and just had **** luck.

Please use common sense and logic. Those who work hard and made the better choices have a higher rate of success. This is an undeniable truth.

I'm probably going to drop out of this topic because I'm having a difficult time fathoming the gap between the idealistic and the stark reality.

My final comment is that many of you are making the assumption that there is a choice to be made.

People with options make choices.

When there is only one path forward you simply proceed whether you want to or not.

This is a great way to put it.

Posted by bad_luck on 2/21/2019 6:39:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/21/2019 6:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 2/21/2019 6:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/21/2019 6:24:00 PM (view original):
No, it's not a weird standard. If you are smart with your choices, more times than not it will be the right choice. We'll use your "buying a house" example. If I buy a house with no money in reserve I am asking for disaster. It is a bad idea. Even if it works out okay in the end, it was still a bad idea.

Or, you buy a house and the market takes a dump. You lose your job, run through your savings, and can't sell the house. Your credit is wrecked for seven years after the bank forecloses.

Yes, **** happens. Guess what. Successful people pull themselves back up. It literally happens all the time. That is the essence of my whole point. Being poor temporarily is a product of unfortunate circumstances. Being permanently poor is a product of bad choices and poor money management.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you're right about that.

What difference does it make? Does it mean we eliminate social safety nets?

I am right, but anyways.

Here's my thing on social safety nets. Federal safety nets should be a last resort. The order of responsibility is as follows: Community (Religious and social), Local governments, state governments, federal governments.

The first three have been exempt from their responsibilities because for almost 100 years now the federal government has been the "first responder". If we start holding the correct hierarchy responsible, I believe the need for government intervention will dissipate.

How can you even argue with a guy who says he knows for a fact that anyone who voted for Trump is an idiot. Either he is unsure what a fact is, or he's the idiot.

Lol. I enjoy my contretemps with B_L. I find him to be intelligent. He just happens to be far left so his views aren't always realistic.

If you read the post above yours, you see the other guy arguing claiming that he's right without any factual basis to back it up either.

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/21/2019 7:05:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 2/21/2019 6:39:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/21/2019 6:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 2/21/2019 6:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/21/2019 6:24:00 PM (view original):
No, it's not a weird standard. If you are smart with your choices, more times than not it will be the right choice. We'll use your "buying a house" example. If I buy a house with no money in reserve I am asking for disaster. It is a bad idea. Even if it works out okay in the end, it was still a bad idea.

Or, you buy a house and the market takes a dump. You lose your job, run through your savings, and can't sell the house. Your credit is wrecked for seven years after the bank forecloses.

Yes, **** happens. Guess what. Successful people pull themselves back up. It literally happens all the time. That is the essence of my whole point. Being poor temporarily is a product of unfortunate circumstances. Being permanently poor is a product of bad choices and poor money management.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you're right about that.

What difference does it make? Does it mean we eliminate social safety nets?

I am right, but anyways.

Here's my thing on social safety nets. Federal safety nets should be a last resort. The order of responsibility is as follows: Community (Religious and social), Local governments, state governments, federal governments.

The first three have been exempt from their responsibilities because for almost 100 years now the federal government has been the "first responder". If we start holding the correct hierarchy responsible, I believe the need for government intervention will dissipate.

I don't think that's actually correct. It depends on the situation but, for instance, unemployment is a state program. Medicaid costs are shared by the states and the feds. Homeless shelters are usually city programs. Food banks are community programs.

Some housing programs are state run. Others are federally run.

If you're talking about things like Medicare or Social Security, there's really no way for anyone other than the Feds to run that.