Lets debate! Topic

Posted by bad_luck on 2/26/2019 5:11:00 PM (view original):
Posted by gomiami1972 on 2/26/2019 3:56:00 PM (view original):
What program are you guys using? Some of the sentences are pretty funny.

Who made the Green New Deal suggestion? I think that would be an entertaining discussion...assuming someone would defend it.
I'm down to talk about the green new deal but arguing is tough, because it's really just a concept. There isn't any actual policy to criticize or defend, it's just a group of principles.

For instance, AOC proposed 100% renewable electricity and decarbonizing the entire economy within 10 years. Well, that's not possible.

But a combination of renewable and carbon free energy (nuclear etc) might work.

The "new deal" part is just an infrastructure bill attached to a clean energy bill. It's not a bad idea. But it's also not a new idea and if half the country is still convinced that carbon emissions aren't even a problem, getting it passed prior to or absent a 2020 Dem sweep will be impossible.

This was an interesting quote from Vox on it:

The first and most persistent question facing any social reform in the US is how it will pay for itself. The right has spent more than half a century in the US waging a propaganda campaign intended to convince Americans of a few key things: 1) the federal budget must be balanced, with every dollar spent “paid for” with a dollar of revenue raised, lest inflation destroy us all; 2) taxes are high and burdensome and any effort to raise taxes is, de facto, bad; 3) government is incompetent and its spending is always wasteful; and 4) America is broke, in debt, with crippling liabilities coming due soon.

To be clear, all four are false. They are pernicious myths, motivated by the desire to prevent progressive social reform. They are, to use a technical term, bullshit.

But they are, nonetheless, widely accepted bullshit that shapes the US political economy. Indeed, they have been repeated so often, for so long, that they have permeated the establishments of both parties and shaped the folk political theories of the average American. Stop a random person on the street and they might not know much about politics, but they will be certain that the country is in debt and can’t afford nice things.




Hmm...that is interesting. I read a lot of VoxEurope but never the domestic stuff.

If we had a discussion on the Green New Deal, I'd let you take the lead. I have only read soundbites about it and I'm not even sure what the definitive principles are.
2/26/2019 5:35 PM
I look at it like this, if China were poised to attack us, we would max out resources to defend ourselves and survive the attack. We wouldn't worry about budgets or debt or the deficit. We would put the entire country to work making tanks and planes and bombs and soldiers.

Climate change is that threat.

In addition to that, there's a school of thought that budgets don't have to be balanced and deficits don't matter. We control our currency.

From the same Vox piece:

The US government can spend all the money it wants. What ultimately sets the limits on America’s ability to invest are its resources. It has so much labor potential, so much natural resources, so much manufacturing capacity, etc. By paying for stuff, injecting money into the economy, the government puts those resources to work.

If the economy overheats, one or more of those resources nears its limits, scarcity drives prices up and inflation ensues. To stop short of that, the government can pull some money out, by scaling back programs or raising taxes. Taxes are simply a way of extracting money from the economy.

Stony Brook University professor Stephanie Kelton (a Modern Monetary Theory guru, Sanders adviser, and likely GND adviser in some capacity, at some point) calls it an economy’s natural speed limit. As long as the economy stays under that limit and avoids inflation, the government can spend more money. A deficit isn’t a bad thing, it’s just a foot on the accelerator.

2/26/2019 5:54 PM
Posted by rsp777 on 2/26/2019 5:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by wylie715 on 2/26/2019 4:35:00 PM (view original):
Tais toi bordel. Vous êtes tous un tas de sous-vêtements malodorants
Cela vient de la sueur des bushnons poilus.
Qu'est-ce que c'est qu'un bushnon? Je pète dans votre direction générale.
2/26/2019 6:23 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 2/26/2019 5:54:00 PM (view original):
I look at it like this, if China were poised to attack us, we would max out resources to defend ourselves and survive the attack. We wouldn't worry about budgets or debt or the deficit. We would put the entire country to work making tanks and planes and bombs and soldiers.

Climate change is that threat.

In addition to that, there's a school of thought that budgets don't have to be balanced and deficits don't matter. We control our currency.

From the same Vox piece:

The US government can spend all the money it wants. What ultimately sets the limits on America’s ability to invest are its resources. It has so much labor potential, so much natural resources, so much manufacturing capacity, etc. By paying for stuff, injecting money into the economy, the government puts those resources to work.

If the economy overheats, one or more of those resources nears its limits, scarcity drives prices up and inflation ensues. To stop short of that, the government can pull some money out, by scaling back programs or raising taxes. Taxes are simply a way of extracting money from the economy.

Stony Brook University professor Stephanie Kelton (a Modern Monetary Theory guru, Sanders adviser, and likely GND adviser in some capacity, at some point) calls it an economy’s natural speed limit. As long as the economy stays under that limit and avoids inflation, the government can spend more money. A deficit isn’t a bad thing, it’s just a foot on the accelerator.

Well...the first point we should probably leave alone. Climate Change Theory is nonsensical and we've already danced that dance.

The second is fascinating (to me.) Modern Monetary Theory would be what I would discuss. There's a lot to explore with that one.
2/26/2019 6:28 PM
Posted by wylie715 on 2/26/2019 6:23:00 PM (view original):
Posted by rsp777 on 2/26/2019 5:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by wylie715 on 2/26/2019 4:35:00 PM (view original):
Tais toi bordel. Vous êtes tous un tas de sous-vêtements malodorants
Cela vient de la sueur des bushnons poilus.
Qu'est-ce que c'est qu'un bushnon? Je pète dans votre direction générale.
Nice Monty Python reference. I guess I unintentionally started this. I read French all day long and now the WIS forums are full of frogs. No one to blame but myself...
2/26/2019 6:36 PM
why do you read french all day long? are you being punished?
2/26/2019 7:31 PM
Posted by gomiami1972 on 2/26/2019 6:28:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 2/26/2019 5:54:00 PM (view original):
I look at it like this, if China were poised to attack us, we would max out resources to defend ourselves and survive the attack. We wouldn't worry about budgets or debt or the deficit. We would put the entire country to work making tanks and planes and bombs and soldiers.

Climate change is that threat.

In addition to that, there's a school of thought that budgets don't have to be balanced and deficits don't matter. We control our currency.

From the same Vox piece:

The US government can spend all the money it wants. What ultimately sets the limits on America’s ability to invest are its resources. It has so much labor potential, so much natural resources, so much manufacturing capacity, etc. By paying for stuff, injecting money into the economy, the government puts those resources to work.

If the economy overheats, one or more of those resources nears its limits, scarcity drives prices up and inflation ensues. To stop short of that, the government can pull some money out, by scaling back programs or raising taxes. Taxes are simply a way of extracting money from the economy.

Stony Brook University professor Stephanie Kelton (a Modern Monetary Theory guru, Sanders adviser, and likely GND adviser in some capacity, at some point) calls it an economy’s natural speed limit. As long as the economy stays under that limit and avoids inflation, the government can spend more money. A deficit isn’t a bad thing, it’s just a foot on the accelerator.

Well...the first point we should probably leave alone. Climate Change Theory is nonsensical and we've already danced that dance.

The second is fascinating (to me.) Modern Monetary Theory would be what I would discuss. There's a lot to explore with that one.
Not sure how anyone can look at the climate science and rationally conclude that it's nonsensical. The science is overwhelming.

2/26/2019 7:33 PM
Well I tend to agree but I can also understand how that (false) conclusion can be arrived at.
The whole issue became politicized and that sent it straight to hell.

IF you haven't actually sat in on a forum/conference among the scientists within the field then all you have to go on is what makes the news. Hits the internets, etc. That's second-hand politicized info!

I (personally) had a tiny edge on this issue. My youngest daughter is a Dr. of evolutionary Biology who has spent time on an Island in the middle of the Panama Canal (forget the name) where they've kept records on literally every living THING on the island (conducted research on wasps, bees, bugs of all types, snakes, monkees, the jungle itself, etc.) over many many years so that they can study the differing results and MEASURE things like climactic changes, (on everything ON the island) and make scientific conclusions BASED on the results of the research.
You know, basic science. Observe, note, compare. LEARN.

Folks like my daughter (and 1000's of other PHD's of various sciences) will nearly unanimously explain to anyone willing to listen just exactly WHAT the trouble is, how bad it will get, and how long we'll have IF the polar caps continue to melt due to any additional significant rise in global (overall) average temperature.

The "left" is NOT lying about the reality of the threat. SOME may be exaggerating some, but the scientists are NOT lying about it!
2/26/2019 8:02 PM
Posted by rsp777 on 2/26/2019 5:05:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tangplay on 2/26/2019 4:17:00 PM (view original):
Posted by rsp777 on 2/26/2019 3:18:00 PM (view original):
Souffle moi mec. La France est pour la reddition, le fromage et les bushnons poilus. C'est a peu pres ca.

Je rigole...rire de bon coeur
Pardon? La France est belle Leur cuisine est excellente. Ne laissez pas Hitler le gâter pour vous. De plus, ils sont la seule chose qui tienne l'Union européenne ensemble
Hitler ne pouvait pas plus ruiner la France que les Francais l'avaient deja fait avant lui. La nourriture et la chatte sont tout ce qui est bon avec ces fichues grenouilles. Et evidmment je suis juste une bite.
Oui, ce n'est pas comme si Hitler avait tué 50% de ma famille dans le passé. Les Français ne sont peut-être pas bons en guerre mais ils sont bons dans ce qui est vraiment important: la nourriture et la philosophie.
2/26/2019 9:44 PM
Posted by wylie715 on 2/26/2019 6:23:00 PM (view original):
Posted by rsp777 on 2/26/2019 5:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by wylie715 on 2/26/2019 4:35:00 PM (view original):
Tais toi bordel. Vous êtes tous un tas de sous-vêtements malodorants
Cela vient de la sueur des bushnons poilus.
Qu'est-ce que c'est qu'un bushnon? Je pète dans votre direction générale.
Je peux partager votre direction générale si c'est mieux?
2/26/2019 9:46 PM
Posted by wylie715 on 2/26/2019 7:31:00 PM (view original):
why do you read french all day long? are you being punished?
Long story short.

Before I was forced to retire in 2012, (disability - I'm a long ways away from retirement age) I had started studying French with the hopes of qualifying for translator certification. It's a big deal for a résumé. Long before I could take the examination, my health collapsed but I was so used to the habit that I kept it up (the studying.) All day is an exaggeration but I probably spend 15-20 hours a week reading European newspapers, 19th C. literature, etc. If push came to shove, it could be a marketable skill and about the only thing my poor body could take at this point.
2/26/2019 10:10 PM
Posted by laramiebob on 2/26/2019 8:02:00 PM (view original):
Well I tend to agree but I can also understand how that (false) conclusion can be arrived at.
The whole issue became politicized and that sent it straight to hell.

IF you haven't actually sat in on a forum/conference among the scientists within the field then all you have to go on is what makes the news. Hits the internets, etc. That's second-hand politicized info!

I (personally) had a tiny edge on this issue. My youngest daughter is a Dr. of evolutionary Biology who has spent time on an Island in the middle of the Panama Canal (forget the name) where they've kept records on literally every living THING on the island (conducted research on wasps, bees, bugs of all types, snakes, monkees, the jungle itself, etc.) over many many years so that they can study the differing results and MEASURE things like climactic changes, (on everything ON the island) and make scientific conclusions BASED on the results of the research.
You know, basic science. Observe, note, compare. LEARN.

Folks like my daughter (and 1000's of other PHD's of various sciences) will nearly unanimously explain to anyone willing to listen just exactly WHAT the trouble is, how bad it will get, and how long we'll have IF the polar caps continue to melt due to any additional significant rise in global (overall) average temperature.

The "left" is NOT lying about the reality of the threat. SOME may be exaggerating some, but the scientists are NOT lying about it!
For the most part, I have given up trying to speak with true believers about this subject. There are excellent semantical reasons for calling Climate Change or Climate Change Theory or Global Warming absolute BS. I never get through because there is some kind of emotional trigger that prevents comprehension. That's fine. The truth is, our positions are not THAT far apart but, like a small difference in religious doctrine, it is enough to cause outright schism.

The politicization of our society has destroyed everything within its orbit. Turning and turning in the widening gyre, the falcon cannot hear the falconer; Things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world; The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere the ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction while the worst are full of passionate intensity.
2/26/2019 10:12 PM
Posted by wylie715 on 2/26/2019 6:23:00 PM (view original):
Posted by rsp777 on 2/26/2019 5:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by wylie715 on 2/26/2019 4:35:00 PM (view original):
Tais toi bordel. Vous êtes tous un tas de sous-vêtements malodorants
Cela vient de la sueur des bushnons poilus.
Qu'est-ce que c'est qu'un bushnon? Je pète dans votre direction générale.
Avez-vous déjà vu un film de Kevin Smith? Il est un maître du dialogue cinématographique américain, duquel sont dérivés les bushnons.
2/27/2019 4:23 AM
Posted by tangplay on 2/26/2019 9:44:00 PM (view original):
Posted by rsp777 on 2/26/2019 5:05:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tangplay on 2/26/2019 4:17:00 PM (view original):
Posted by rsp777 on 2/26/2019 3:18:00 PM (view original):
Souffle moi mec. La France est pour la reddition, le fromage et les bushnons poilus. C'est a peu pres ca.

Je rigole...rire de bon coeur
Pardon? La France est belle Leur cuisine est excellente. Ne laissez pas Hitler le gâter pour vous. De plus, ils sont la seule chose qui tienne l'Union européenne ensemble
Hitler ne pouvait pas plus ruiner la France que les Francais l'avaient deja fait avant lui. La nourriture et la chatte sont tout ce qui est bon avec ces fichues grenouilles. Et evidmment je suis juste une bite.
Oui, ce n'est pas comme si Hitler avait tué 50% de ma famille dans le passé. Les Français ne sont peut-être pas bons en guerre mais ils sont bons dans ce qui est vraiment important: la nourriture et la philosophie.
Désolé pour ta lignée. Hitler était un fou. Vous avez oublié de mentionner les vins de France. Aussi un plus.
2/27/2019 4:29 AM
Posted by gomiami1972 on 2/26/2019 10:10:00 PM (view original):
Posted by wylie715 on 2/26/2019 7:31:00 PM (view original):
why do you read french all day long? are you being punished?
Long story short.

Before I was forced to retire in 2012, (disability - I'm a long ways away from retirement age) I had started studying French with the hopes of qualifying for translator certification. It's a big deal for a résumé. Long before I could take the examination, my health collapsed but I was so used to the habit that I kept it up (the studying.) All day is an exaggeration but I probably spend 15-20 hours a week reading European newspapers, 19th C. literature, etc. If push came to shove, it could be a marketable skill and about the only thing my poor body could take at this point.
Malheureusement, nos récits sonnent de manière similaire, sauf que j'ai travaillé toute ma vie dans le physique, en tant que bassiste professionnel dans un groupe de hard rock. Mon beau-frère m'a intéressée à la linguistique française lorsqu'il est allé travailler dans son entreprise de fabrication de plastique. Moi aussi, je suis handicapé et pris ma retraite très jeune, à la fois au travail et au spectacle.
2/27/2019 4:35 AM
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