Or Kansas at A+

Posted by gillispie1 on 5/9/2019 8:58:00 AM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 5/8/2019 4:32:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 5/8/2019 3:49:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 5/8/2019 3:03:00 PM (view original):
“or hcp which is basically a terrible proposition almost always”

LOL

im curious, do you actually run much hcp, or do you have both IQs so you can pick zone or press as it suits your team, and occasionally mix in some hcp? i tried that and it was pretty sweet - having two IQs - and in there i'd occasionally play some hcp, just because it was literally free at that point. not asking to argue, im just curious how you are using it.

HCP, almost exclusively. One year, when OK St had 2 walkons plus an ineligible, and i redshirted a guy, I went straight zone for maybe a handful of games. Sometimes when I have a full squad, I am tempted to go full press, but I almost always resist it.

The extra 10 points I spend on the press really isn’t adding a lot of value anywhere else. I could use it to bolster IQ for the primaries, but as discussed, we’re already into diminishing returns at 20. I could use it to work on non-cores earlier in guys careers, but why? In D1 that’s a hindrance, as the more “well-rounded” players are more likely to leave early. Makes a little more sense in lower levels, but honestly, the extra turnovers every game just feel a lot more tangibly valuable to me, over a guy maxing out an extra non-core or two over the course of his career.

makes sense, i mean i definitely wouldn't use the 10 points for the off-cores, i'm assuming managing your draft picks is still one of the most important fringe parts of d1. however, with the guys leaving early, i also look at 25 points as near-mandatory for high d1 because of how many sophs/juniors are playing leading roles. diminishing returns or not, 20->25 is a very meaningful difference especially on offense, so you are giving up something pretty substantial.

unfortunately 10m isn't really enough to go full press - kind of a shame - press is really the only unbalanced set at the highest levels of play, its hard to have teams well suited for it every year, but its a shame you aren't able to use it those years when you are 12 deep and hoping for a championship, where zone is at its worst!

Wiz would have to confirm, but I believe KU won a title in phelan the year he switched to FB/press, and had virtually nobody over B in IQ during the tournament. Of course, that was a ludicrously talented team.

I like the 10 points in press for a HCP, because it gives me a tangible and relatively consistent yield - extra possessions, every game. Putting 5 extra points in the primaries instead... I don’t ever really see that yield, and I know I’m not getting anywhere near 10 points of value for it; diminishing returns hits you twice, once directly on the points above ~10, and also indirectly for players as they advance in IQ.

I would also argue that 10 points does put me in a position to hypothetically switch to press effectively, if I happened onto a stacked team. My juniors will be starting the season in the B- to B range, and bumping them up to 20 for the year gets my key players into the B+ to A- range by tournament time. IQ isn’t an advantage at that point, but the damage is mitigated, and for a team with truly stacked talent, it could be worth it. I’ve thought about it with Oregon twice the last 4-5 seasons, just didn’t have quite enough talent to make me want to pull the trigger.

I’ve been meaning to try a modified version of drichar’s program, where I also pump minutes into fastbreak, and use it from season to season as a late game option, but also retain the option to quickly transition (pun intended) to fastbreak as a primary set, if I get a couple great classes in a row.

One more thing to consider that has changed a bit with HD3.0 is that we now have visibility into orange and red ratings for players. With that, you can be much more aggressive on lowering individual practice minutes on those ratings without losing any points, especially with high WE players. I practices 2 defenses and still usually have among the highest player improvement in the conference.

Posted by drichar138 on 5/9/2019 7:13:00 PM (view original):
One more thing to consider that has changed a bit with HD3.0 is that we now have visibility into orange and red ratings for players. With that, you can be much more aggressive on lowering individual practice minutes on those ratings without losing any points, especially with high WE players. I practices 2 defenses and still usually have among the highest player improvement in the conference.

how is that different? we've had that since potential came into existence haven't we?

Posted by shoe3 on 5/9/2019 10:59:00 AM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 5/9/2019 8:58:00 AM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 5/8/2019 4:32:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 5/8/2019 3:49:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 5/8/2019 3:03:00 PM (view original):
“or hcp which is basically a terrible proposition almost always”

LOL

im curious, do you actually run much hcp, or do you have both IQs so you can pick zone or press as it suits your team, and occasionally mix in some hcp? i tried that and it was pretty sweet - having two IQs - and in there i'd occasionally play some hcp, just because it was literally free at that point. not asking to argue, im just curious how you are using it.

HCP, almost exclusively. One year, when OK St had 2 walkons plus an ineligible, and i redshirted a guy, I went straight zone for maybe a handful of games. Sometimes when I have a full squad, I am tempted to go full press, but I almost always resist it.

The extra 10 points I spend on the press really isn’t adding a lot of value anywhere else. I could use it to bolster IQ for the primaries, but as discussed, we’re already into diminishing returns at 20. I could use it to work on non-cores earlier in guys careers, but why? In D1 that’s a hindrance, as the more “well-rounded” players are more likely to leave early. Makes a little more sense in lower levels, but honestly, the extra turnovers every game just feel a lot more tangibly valuable to me, over a guy maxing out an extra non-core or two over the course of his career.

makes sense, i mean i definitely wouldn't use the 10 points for the off-cores, i'm assuming managing your draft picks is still one of the most important fringe parts of d1. however, with the guys leaving early, i also look at 25 points as near-mandatory for high d1 because of how many sophs/juniors are playing leading roles. diminishing returns or not, 20->25 is a very meaningful difference especially on offense, so you are giving up something pretty substantial.

unfortunately 10m isn't really enough to go full press - kind of a shame - press is really the only unbalanced set at the highest levels of play, its hard to have teams well suited for it every year, but its a shame you aren't able to use it those years when you are 12 deep and hoping for a championship, where zone is at its worst!

Wiz would have to confirm, but I believe KU won a title in phelan the year he switched to FB/press, and had virtually nobody over B in IQ during the tournament. Of course, that was a ludicrously talented team.

I like the 10 points in press for a HCP, because it gives me a tangible and relatively consistent yield - extra possessions, every game. Putting 5 extra points in the primaries instead... I don’t ever really see that yield, and I know I’m not getting anywhere near 10 points of value for it; diminishing returns hits you twice, once directly on the points above ~10, and also indirectly for players as they advance in IQ.

I would also argue that 10 points does put me in a position to hypothetically switch to press effectively, if I happened onto a stacked team. My juniors will be starting the season in the B- to B range, and bumping them up to 20 for the year gets my key players into the B+ to A- range by tournament time. IQ isn’t an advantage at that point, but the damage is mitigated, and for a team with truly stacked talent, it could be worth it. I’ve thought about it with Oregon twice the last 4-5 seasons, just didn’t have quite enough talent to make me want to pull the trigger.

I’ve been meaning to try a modified version of drichar’s program, where I also pump minutes into fastbreak, and use it from season to season as a late game option, but also retain the option to quickly transition (pun intended) to fastbreak as a primary set, if I get a couple great classes in a row.

its possible to win without great IQ, just like its possible to win a title making almost any 10 mistakes. it doesn't mean those things don't matter. WIS is a game where there are a couple hundred factors, and the best coaches don't come close to nailing them all. the best teams ever, the ones who were huge title favorites - even favored over the field - still aren't that close to perfect.

IQ is really important, and having B+/A- for your top players is a significant disadvantage. its workable, just like a hundred other disadvantages, but its definitely a disadvantage. i'm not saying you can't make up for that, with the flexibility of the zone + press set you play - i actually think you can and love the idea of having IQ in 2 defenses, i wish more folks did it. but i am saying on face value, that IQ gap on your top year will put you well behind an equally good press team with full IQ (25+ mins) in their sets.

Posted by zorzii on 5/9/2019 10:06:00 AM (view original):
WFU is waiting for you in Phelan Gil. Let's go! ACC B+

sadly, i have no idea how to get in my other accounts or what worlds they would be eligible for! i only ever played tark on this one, so sort of limited to that i suppose. but thanks!

Posted by gillispie1 on 5/9/2019 9:21:00 PM (view original):

Posted by drichar138 on 5/9/2019 7:13:00 PM (view original):
One more thing to consider that has changed a bit with HD3.0 is that we now have visibility into orange and red ratings for players. With that, you can be much more aggressive on lowering individual practice minutes on those ratings without losing any points, especially with high WE players. I practices 2 defenses and still usually have among the highest player improvement in the conference.

how is that different? we've had that since potential came into existence haven't we?

Well, maybe I wasn't knowledgeable enough to exploit it in HD2.0, but now you can see when the rating goes from orange to red and once the rating goes red, you can pretty much zero it out with little risk of losing any points. Before, I would just lower it to 2-4 at was essentially orange, without realizing or being able to see the point in which it could be zero'd.

“its possible to win without great IQ, just like its possible to win a title making almost any 10 mistakes. it doesn't mean those things don't matter. WIS is a game where there are a couple hundred factors, and the best coaches don't come close to nailing them all. the best teams ever, the ones who were huge title favorites - even favored over the field - still aren't that close to perfect.”

I have yet to run into anyone who thinks IQ doesn’t matter. Of course it does. I’m saying running a decent HCP gets me an extra few possessions every single game. And I do have the option to quickly switch to FCP, if I think my team will benefit from more depth utilization; but that flexibility is secondary, or really probably tertiary for me as a reason to invest minutes in press when it’s not my primary. Not getting all my seniors to A+ IQ is not a “mistake”, it’s a choice. It isn’t like “oops, I guess I messed up by not spending 25 minutes in my primary sets”. Choices have consequences; mistakes are when you don’t understand the consequences. Guys spending 25 minutes on their primary sets are also giving something up; it’s a valid choice, and it’s only a mistake if they don’t understand what those 10 extra points could be used for.

I only get 15% or so of my Sr's to A+ IQ. I have won a title or two....

Posted by shoe3 on 5/10/2019 9:18:00 AM (view original):
“its possible to win without great IQ, just like its possible to win a title making almost any 10 mistakes. it doesn't mean those things don't matter. WIS is a game where there are a couple hundred factors, and the best coaches don't come close to nailing them all. the best teams ever, the ones who were huge title favorites - even favored over the field - still aren't that close to perfect.”

I have yet to run into anyone who thinks IQ doesn’t matter. Of course it does. I’m saying running a decent HCP gets me an extra few possessions every single game. And I do have the option to quickly switch to FCP, if I think my team will benefit from more depth utilization; but that flexibility is secondary, or really probably tertiary for me as a reason to invest minutes in press when it’s not my primary. Not getting all my seniors to A+ IQ is not a “mistake”, it’s a choice. It isn’t like “oops, I guess I messed up by not spending 25 minutes in my primary sets”. Choices have consequences; mistakes are when you don’t understand the consequences. Guys spending 25 minutes on their primary sets are also giving something up; it’s a valid choice, and it’s only a mistake if they don’t understand what those 10 extra points could be used for.

don't really disagree with your stance here - and i actually didn't mean to call what you are doing a mistake, by any means. like i said, i like the 2 defense options and think it can offset the hit of having less than exceptional IQ. i was just taking specific exception with the part about 20 vs 25 minutes, or the press IQ you'd get from 10 / yr + 20 in the press year, not being a significant difference from folks who were playing press the whole time. it is a significant difference, 20 vs 25 minutes is very significant - but that doesn't mean those 10m can't be better used elsewhere. i just feel like you were basically saying, once you hit a- on your top players or so, it doesn't really buy you anything to increase that further. maybe i read that wrong.

all in all, i think its cool what you are doing.

Posted by drichar138 on 5/9/2019 10:00:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 5/9/2019 9:21:00 PM (view original):

Posted by drichar138 on 5/9/2019 7:13:00 PM (view original):
One more thing to consider that has changed a bit with HD3.0 is that we now have visibility into orange and red ratings for players. With that, you can be much more aggressive on lowering individual practice minutes on those ratings without losing any points, especially with high WE players. I practices 2 defenses and still usually have among the highest player improvement in the conference.

how is that different? we've had that since potential came into existence haven't we?

Well, maybe I wasn't knowledgeable enough to exploit it in HD2.0, but now you can see when the rating goes from orange to red and once the rating goes red, you can pretty much zero it out with little risk of losing any points. Before, I would just lower it to 2-4 at was essentially orange, without realizing or being able to see the point in which it could be zero'd.

oh ok, i follow now. i think it changed colors back then but just for high/med/low? and if you watched those changes and made note of them, or even just kind of paid attention to the growth or decline rate, you could puzzle out about where the cap was? combined with following the evaluation messages to find out who was already low-low at the start, i suppose. the other thing is, you could basically 0 out a category where you still had 2-3 points of growth and pay roughly nothing, especially if your guys had decent work ethic. so its not really necessary to make it an exact science.

what you are talking about is really important though, 0ing out unimportant and low categories is really valuable. surprisingly, i recall that used to be a bit of a controversial subject.

Posted by gillispie1 on 5/10/2019 11:45:00 AM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 5/10/2019 9:18:00 AM (view original):
“its possible to win without great IQ, just like its possible to win a title making almost any 10 mistakes. it doesn't mean those things don't matter. WIS is a game where there are a couple hundred factors, and the best coaches don't come close to nailing them all. the best teams ever, the ones who were huge title favorites - even favored over the field - still aren't that close to perfect.”

I have yet to run into anyone who thinks IQ doesn’t matter. Of course it does. I’m saying running a decent HCP gets me an extra few possessions every single game. And I do have the option to quickly switch to FCP, if I think my team will benefit from more depth utilization; but that flexibility is secondary, or really probably tertiary for me as a reason to invest minutes in press when it’s not my primary. Not getting all my seniors to A+ IQ is not a “mistake”, it’s a choice. It isn’t like “oops, I guess I messed up by not spending 25 minutes in my primary sets”. Choices have consequences; mistakes are when you don’t understand the consequences. Guys spending 25 minutes on their primary sets are also giving something up; it’s a valid choice, and it’s only a mistake if they don’t understand what those 10 extra points could be used for.

don't really disagree with your stance here - and i actually didn't mean to call what you are doing a mistake, by any means. like i said, i like the 2 defense options and think it can offset the hit of having less than exceptional IQ. i was just taking specific exception with the part about 20 vs 25 minutes, or the press IQ you'd get from 10 / yr + 20 in the press year, not being a significant difference from folks who were playing press the whole time. it is a significant difference, 20 vs 25 minutes is very significant - but that doesn't mean those 10m can't be better used elsewhere. i just feel like you were basically saying, once you hit a- on your top players or so, it doesn't really buy you anything to increase that further. maybe i read that wrong.

all in all, i think its cool what you are doing.

That’s cool, I just wanted to clarify, for those following along. There are lots of viable strategic choices, and they all come with benefits and drawbacks. Opportunity costs, and all that.

another dimension to thinking about this is how much unused potential do your players have - are you recruiting kids who are good but have few greens and blues? or do you just love the high potential guys?

I think you need to consider your general style of recruiting - some coaches just love those greens and blues - and the general state of your roster when deciding how much to invest in team practice.

Not as the only factor, but a factor

Posted by shoe3 on 5/7/2019 8:43:00 AM (view original):
This guy started out straight Fs in the sets I run (flex, press/zone combo). I use 20 for flex and zone, 10 for press. He moved up to C in flex and zone this morning after the 15th “day” of the season.

If there is no direct diminishing return effect on set minutes prior to the 20th minute, he should move up to C in press after day 30, the final game of the regular season. If he moves to C in press before that game, it means there is a diminishing return effect somewhere between the 10th minute and the 20th minute. I’ll try to remember to keep an eye out, and post when he does move to C.

He moved to C in press after the 27th day, which happened to be an off day. So diminishing returns in effect at 20 vs 10, for sure. It isn’t egregious, but it exists.