Posted by tarheel1991 on 9/17/2019 9:46:00 AM (view original):
What a run on point guards in the 3rd/4th. When I traded my 3rd rounder away I was hoping for someone like Conley or Lowry to fall; probably unrealistic, but that position is so deep now. I'm relatively happy with Price but he leaves me a little short on 3s.

Yeah, I think I made a comment elsewhere in the thread about PGs in the third. My take is if you miss out on Paul, Stockton, Magic, Hardaway, Kidd or Nash then you wait until the third and try and get whoever falls from Ginobili (kind of in between these two groups for me), Billups, Deron, Lowry, Conley, Irving, Bledsoe, Holiday. With the talent that has dropped the last two seasons, I personally can't justify anyone else in these early rounds. If I missed out out any of these 14, I would probably totally punt and just patchwork the position with 5th and 6th round guys. There are other people who are good, like B. Barry (I might go 4th/low 3rd with him if I picked up 10 points of usage with my first two picks), Harper, Porter, Price, McMillan and ~2 other people who haven't been taken yet I like okay... but as of the last two seasons I don't think I would take any of them before the 5th.

Posted by benhoidal on 9/16/2019 9:23:00 PM (view original):
The problem with Doc (and Artis) in the ODL is not that they aren’t talented enough. It is that their price dictates you take them in the first two rounds and with the addition of the latest few seasons, there are simply better options in those rounds. Sure you can take them in the third, but most people spend the most money on their top two guys and 9+ million in the third is unrealistic.

Doc, Artis, Russell., Wade, Garnett, and Hakeem are all on my undraftable list.

Selection	Pick	Owner	Pick v. ADP	% of Time Drafted
Curry, Stephen	1	redbooda	-1.25	100%
James, LeBron	2	mptrey	0.38	100%
O'Neal, Shaquille	3	sappy	-2.13	100%
Chamberlain, Wilt	4	NotoriousJ	1.88	100%
Jordan, Michael	5	cjok1051	0.00	100%
Antetokounmpo, Giannis	6	bds9992	-13.50	100%
Abdul-Jabbar, Kareem	7	ronsouth1	-0.25	100%
Paul, Chris	8	Midge	-1.13	100%
Howard, Dwight	9	gerryred	1.75	100%
Malone, Karl	10	dh555	0.50	100%
Durant, Kevin	11	dBKC	-0.50	100%
Barkley, Charles	12	tau1624	-2.00	100%
Davis, Anthony	13	tarheel1991	-19.13	100%
Robinson, David	14	robusk	0.38	100%
Rodman, Dennis	15	benhoidal	3.25	100%
Garnett, Kevin	16	HDS1	-10.63	100%
Gobert, Rudy	17	dBKC	-5.50	100%
Towns, Karl-Anthony	18	jcred5	-25.38	100%
Bird, Larry	19	pharrop	2.25	100%
Jordan, DeAndre	20	copernicus	1.25	100%
Leonard, Kawhi	21	jackedjamie	-5.13	100%
Stockton, John	22	mikee1	3.50	100%
Malone, Moses	23	ysw128	10.50	100%
Duncan, Tim	24	isacqbs58	0.38	100%
Johnson, Magic	25	isacqbs58	4.00	100%
Green, Draymond	26	ysw128	-3.63	100%
Pippen, Scottie	27	mikee1	-3.63	100%
McHale, Kevin	28	jackedjamie	-2.88	100%
Kidd, Jason	29	copernicus	1.25	100%
Wallace, Ben	30	pharrop	1.13	100%
Whiteside, Hassan	31	jcred5	0.63	100%
George, Paul	32	jhsukow	-46.00	75%
Drummond, Andre	33	HDS1	-11.00	100%
Chandler, Tyson	34	tarheel1991	-21.50	100%
Hardaway, Anfernee	35	robusk	1.25	100%
Walton, Bill	36	benhoidal	-4.00	100%
Camby, Marcus	37	tau1624	-8.63	100%
Gilmore, Artis	38	jhsukow	4.50	100%
Billups, Chauncey	39	dh555	-0.25	100%
Nash, Steve	40	gerryred	5.88	100%
Mourning, Alonzo	41	Midge	-26.00	100%
Ginobili, Manu	42	jhsukow	-4.13	100%
Thompson, Klay	43	bds9992	1.13	100%
Noah, Joakim	44	cjok1051	-18.00	100%
Vucevic, Nikola	45	NotoriousJ	5.00	13%
Wade, Dwyane	46	sappy	20.38	100%
Jokic, Nikola	47	mptrey	-19.38	100%
Harper, Derek	48	redbooda	-19.63	100%
Capela, Clint	49	redbooda	-30.60	63%
Mutombo, Dikembe	50	mptrey	1.38	100%
Marion, Shawn	51	sappy	6.13	100%
Brand, Elton	52	NotoriousJ	-9.00	100%
Boozer, Carlos	53	cjok1051	-37.14	88%
Porter, Terry	54	bds9992	4.00	100%
McAdoo, Bob	55	ronsouth1	3.63	100%
Marshall, Donyell	56	Midge	8.63	100%
Lucas, Jerry	57	gerryred	-28.60	63%
Grant, Horace	58	dh555	-11.50	100%
McMillan, Nate	59	jhsukow	-44.13	100%
Oladipo, Victor	60	tau1624	-4.33	38%
Harden, James	61	benhoidal	22.13	100%
Bledsoe, Eric	62	robusk	-52.60	63%
Boerwinkle, Tom	63	benhoidal	-8.25	100%
Love, Kevin	64	HDS1	-25.14	88%
Williams, Deron	65	ronsouth1	24.13	100%
Simmons, Ben	66	jcred5	15.00	38%
Holiday, Jrue	67	pharrop	-18.50	50%
Irving, Kyrie	68	copernicus	-12.00	50%
Olajuwon, Hakeem	69	jackedjamie	32.13	100%
Russell, Bill	70	mikee1	15.88	100%
Conley, Mike	71	ysw128	11.88	100%
Erving, Julius	72	isacqbs58	17.63	100%
Gortat, Marcin	73	isacqbs58	-58.00	13%
Stoudemire, Amare	74	ysw128	12.14	88%
Kemp, Shawn	75	mikee1	17.00	100%
Calderon, Jose	76	jackedjamie	-14.25	100%
Nance, Larry	77	copernicus	-5.38	100%
Lowry, Kyle	78	pharrop	20.00	100%
Barry, Brent	79	jcred5	6.75	100%
Williams, Buck	80	bds9992	-9.50	100%
Drexler, Clyde	81	HDS1	8.50	100%
Butler, Jimmy	82	tarheel1991	#N/A	0%
Williams, Marvin	83	robusk	-12.43	88%
Price, Mark	84	tarheel1991	0.00	100%
Valanciunas, Jonas	85	tau1624	-40.67	75%
Beal, Bradley	86	dBKC	54.00	13%
Sabonis, Domantas	87	dh555	0.00	13%

Posted by benhoidal on 9/16/2019 9:23:00 PM (view original):
The problem with Doc (and Artis) in the ODL is not that they aren’t talented enough. It is that their price dictates you take them in the first two rounds and with the addition of the latest few seasons, there are simply better options in those rounds. Sure you can take them in the third, but most people spend the most money on their top two guys and 9+ million in the third is unrealistic.

Right. IMO, neither is talented enough for the first two rounds any longer and too expensive for the later rounds.

There have been times where I have had two super low TO/low foul perimeter guys after two rounds who were cheap where I lightly considered Gilmore but never enough to pull the trigger.

I also as a pseudo-rule feel shaky drafting anyone over like ~38 MIN/82 because then I feel like I am just wasting money in the playoffs when I can stretch minutes.

Posted by robusk on 9/17/2019 11:51:00 AM (view original):

Posted by benhoidal on 9/16/2019 9:23:00 PM (view original):
The problem with Doc (and Artis) in the ODL is not that they aren’t talented enough. It is that their price dictates you take them in the first two rounds and with the addition of the latest few seasons, there are simply better options in those rounds. Sure you can take them in the third, but most people spend the most money on their top two guys and 9+ million in the third is unrealistic.

Doc, Artis, Russell., Wade, Garnett, and Hakeem are all on my undraftable list.

Bill Russell? I find his single 90 d season fairlly affordable, good on the boards not too messy, passes well for the position...

Posted by copernicus on 9/17/2019 12:13:00 PM (view original):

Posted by robusk on 9/17/2019 11:51:00 AM (view original):

Posted by benhoidal on 9/16/2019 9:23:00 PM (view original):
The problem with Doc (and Artis) in the ODL is not that they aren’t talented enough. It is that their price dictates you take them in the first two rounds and with the addition of the latest few seasons, there are simply better options in those rounds. Sure you can take them in the third, but most people spend the most money on their top two guys and 9+ million in the third is unrealistic.

Doc, Artis, Russell., Wade, Garnett, and Hakeem are all on my undraftable list.

Bill Russell? I find his single 90 d season fairlly affordable, good on the boards not too messy, passes well for the position...

His ADP has him right around Mutombo, Chandler, Noah, Camby... plus some offensive lower D options. None of them shoot 43.3% eFG and I don't have to pay a premium for a 40 MPG season. By the time I get to the 4th round where his talent would dictate he gets taken, I am not spending 7.6M on anyone.

Are you planning to do evals tarheel?

Posted by robusk on 9/17/2019 12:58:00 PM (view original):
Are you planning to do evals tarheel?

Oh yeah - forgot I had to do that. Heavy is the head that wears the crown. Yes, I'll do them, but it will be at the end of the draft.

Posted by robusk on 9/17/2019 11:51:00 AM (view original):

Posted by benhoidal on 9/16/2019 9:23:00 PM (view original):
The problem with Doc (and Artis) in the ODL is not that they aren’t talented enough. It is that their price dictates you take them in the first two rounds and with the addition of the latest few seasons, there are simply better options in those rounds. Sure you can take them in the third, but most people spend the most money on their top two guys and 9+ million in the third is unrealistic.

Doc, Artis, Russell., Wade, Garnett, and Hakeem are all on my undraftable list.

I like 05-06 Garnett at this cap. But I'd like more if he had 1.5% more usage, and I know you hate how high his midrange % is.

Posted by tarheel1991 on 9/17/2019 1:06:00 PM (view original):

Posted by robusk on 9/17/2019 11:51:00 AM (view original):

Posted by benhoidal on 9/16/2019 9:23:00 PM (view original):
The problem with Doc (and Artis) in the ODL is not that they aren’t talented enough. It is that their price dictates you take them in the first two rounds and with the addition of the latest few seasons, there are simply better options in those rounds. Sure you can take them in the third, but most people spend the most money on their top two guys and 9+ million in the third is unrealistic.

Doc, Artis, Russell., Wade, Garnett, and Hakeem are all on my undraftable list.

I like 05-06 Garnett at this cap. But I'd like more if he had 1.5% more usage, and I know you hate how high his midrange % is.

If I have a high usage player with that much midrange, then they need to offer me two things: elite or pseudo-elite shooting %s and elite #'s in the supporting areas of ast%, rebounding%, defense, etc. Someone like Malone does this. Garnett/Wade shoot too low of a % for a high usage mid range focused guy for me. Someone like Doc doesn't offer enough passing/rebounding for their position.

I don't exclusively rule out midrange focused guys. It does box me in for how much PNT% and PER% I have to draft to compensate for them though. So they better not have any other holes.

Posted by robusk on 9/17/2019 1:24:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tarheel1991 on 9/17/2019 1:06:00 PM (view original):

Posted by robusk on 9/17/2019 11:51:00 AM (view original):

Posted by benhoidal on 9/16/2019 9:23:00 PM (view original):
The problem with Doc (and Artis) in the ODL is not that they aren’t talented enough. It is that their price dictates you take them in the first two rounds and with the addition of the latest few seasons, there are simply better options in those rounds. Sure you can take them in the third, but most people spend the most money on their top two guys and 9+ million in the third is unrealistic.

Doc, Artis, Russell., Wade, Garnett, and Hakeem are all on my undraftable list.

I like 05-06 Garnett at this cap. But I'd like more if he had 1.5% more usage, and I know you hate how high his midrange % is.

If I have a high usage player with that much midrange, then they need to offer me two things: elite or pseudo-elite shooting %s and elite #'s in the supporting areas of ast%, rebounding%, defense, etc. Someone like Malone does this. Garnett/Wade shoot too low of a % for a high usage mid range focused guy for me. Someone like Doc doesn't offer enough passing/rebounding for their position.

I don't exclusively rule out midrange focused guys. It does box me in for how much PNT% and PER% I have to draft to compensate for them though. So they better not have any other holes.

Fair enough. Garnett's shooting % is comfortably ahead of Wade's, and he brings great assists, excellent defensive rebounding, and low fouls/turnovers for his position, along with solid defensive stats. I don't think he's a first round pick, but if he gets paired with the right guy I think he can be a very good second-round pick.

By the way, I've never used it before, but Garnett's 07-08 season should work well at this cap too. Probably couldn't justify taking him in the 3rd round for that season, though.

I think Ben should maybe be worried about his rebounding

Posted by copernicus on 9/17/2019 1:58:00 PM (view original):
I think Ben should maybe be worried about his rebounding

You know, I was just thinking this. Might need a 20% dreb shooting guard to help it out.

yeah I think you'll want to get at least 120 drb%

@dbkc: why Frazier there? Genuinely curious as you are a quality owner and I don’t know what he does that other undrafted-ish players do besides play a ton of minutes for a bunch of money.